Gender Identity is an oxymoron

[CantankerousCamel]

Maybe someone here can explain this to me.

Gender is the name given to the social roles and practises enforced due to sex class

That’s what the word has always meant, it was first coined by some dude called John in the middle of the last century and has always meant this.

Identity is an innate sense of self, personality if you will.

So the two cannot go together, you cannot adjust the social scripting enforced due to your sex class with personality, that’s why it’s enforced. Otherwise it’s not gender.

Obviously feminism has always promoted identity over gender, because how we see ourselves and how we project ourselves should be more important than how society scripts us due to sex class, but that is abolition of gender.

I don’t understand the term ‘gender identity’ I don’t understand why, when people use it, they’re unable to give this alternative definition of either gender or identity that makes those words go together.

An arbitrary understanding of sociology shows that the words are opposite. One is how you see yourself, the other how society scripts you.

I believe Gender Identity is double speak, like Male woman or girl penis.

In short, the idea that makeup in and of itself signals "up for it" is the sort of idea that gives women and girls a lot of problems the world over every day.

I definitely don't think it means "up for it"; in fact I was really trying to stay as far away from that as possible because it's not right, or what I think at all. And also, like you say, any one social signal (such as wearing make-up) is far, far more complicated that was ever going to be expressed in that example. That was a clunky example for the making of a single point. That being that sometimes you want people to know what you are. So it's not about anything showing that you're "available" (i.e. for sex), but about signalling what you are (in the context of sex).

That's not me saying "hi, I'm wearing make-up because I want you to know I'm up for some sex now please". Not at all. That's me saying, "in this sexualised environment I want you to know what team I'm playing for". Although as you say I might not actually be saying that and I might be saying any number of other thing as well as that; but as an observable thing I think it's fair to say that gender stereotypes sometimes and to some degree are about saying "in terms of getting my rocks off, this is the team that I'm playing for".

It most certainly does, but gender is the social roles and practises enforced due to sex class, therefore it cannot affect the identity of a person of the opposite sec class, if it does, it ceases (by definition) to be gender.

Yes, this; it’s all about socialization, isn’t it?

We treat male children and female children differently, from the moment of birth. That’s gendered socialization, and it starts way before any kind of identity is formed.

Male children do not receive female socialization (gender) because they are male. Female children do not receive male socialization (gender) because they are female.

Individuals can reject the stereotypes of their sex and prefer the stereotypes of the opposite sex. But that does not mean that that those individuals have experienced the gendered socialization of the opposite sex.

BUT it is never true that that is the intent of every woman and child who wears X - and that is often what men and male dominated society say. Short skirt = asking for it etc.

Absolutely, 100%, definitely not the case.

Actually I think it's interesting that the distinction I made in my previous post is one that is so frequently muddied that the reason so many people think women were asking for it is that they misread the purpose of that person's "signalling".

They don't get the difference between a woman saying "in the game of sex, I'm on team woman" and her saying "I am a woman and I'm up for some sex".

They don't even understand the difference between a woman saying, "I'm wearing make-up because I don't want to suffer to consequences of gender-non-conformity" and her saying "I'm wearing make-up which is woman-speak for I want some sex".

The assignation of meaning to other people's actions, behaviours and presentation is so seductive to human beings - because we're so programmed to use it as communication - it's important to remember we're not all speaking the same language! And it's not acceptable to claim "misunderstanding" when it comes to a woman's expression of consent; that is why we use our words for that one, not what we think someone else is "asking for".

I don't think the surge in transgender people which I agree exists is drug industry inspired.

The whole push for self ID is coming from those who want nothing to do with medicine and often even do not want surgery or hormones.

If this were not true there would be no need to push so hard for self ID because you will still need medical assessment to get those things even if it comes in. So avoiding medicalization of transition is pretty much the only reason the GRA is not being used by them already and self ID is being demanded.

There is a lot of opposition against self ID from the people - mainly transsexuals such as myself - who do not want these medical safeguards removing, because they protect both women and those wanting to claim change of status from mistaken transition that could backfire without proper supervision.

Moreover, the numbers of transsexuals seeing doctors and accessing the GRA is exactly in line with the predictions made to parliament during the debate that created the GRA in 2004.

They said then that about 5000 transsexuals in the UK would use the act to legally change gender and as of last week 4850 have done so (just under 3000 of them being transwomen, the rest transmen).

And between 200 and 300 per year have been consistently applying over the past decade with no sharp increase as seen in the numbers claiming to be transgender visiting identity clinics annually.

RatRolyPoly but it doens't make sense in signalling anything about sexuality either.

I know lesbians who dress in a "feminine" way and wear makeup. Who like to look "pretty" and have heavily feminine coded hobbies.

A few decades back, men wore makeup, straight men and gay men and men who were generous with their affections across the board

Makeup is complex sure but in the "game" of going to the pub, it definitely doesn't signal "straight woman" as a failsafe surety.

When it comes to sex and stuff are men quite simple? I mean not meant in a derogatory way really but thinking about that guy on BB and how when he put on the "sexy lady" attire and hair and makeup all the men were confused. Because they linked the "trappings" with sexy lady so much.

Would straight women be similarly confused by a woman doing this... But men don't really have "sexy man" trappings do they, there aren't all the accoutrements. Sexy man generally = clothes off fit body, and that always seems to me more gay male gaze than female gaze.

The lack of sexy man accoutrments and the massive number of sexy lady accoutrements is entirely cultural obviously. I always find it funny when there is a claim that women objectively have sexier bodies than men. It's usually men who say this, I have heard it in real life. And I say, what objectively, so you think that gay men and straight women agree with you, that female bodies are simply more sexy than male? That's the consequence of being pandered to at every turn, right there.

A few decades back, men wore makeup, straight men and gay men and men who were generous with their affections across the board

It's not about what the stereotype IS though is it, its not specifically about makeup. It's about leveraging whatever the stereotypes are at the time that signal your status. Stereotypes evolve, what makeup or heels or other trope means to us changes, but our using them to signal - whatever they may be - does not.

The lack of sexy man accoutrments and the massive number of sexy lady accoutrements is entirely cultural obviously

Men are probably more visual in their sexual understanding because more is aimed at their visual stimulation. Pure speculation there, but I think we agree?

If there's one thing I don't understand it's whether you actually meant to write "it is", and if you did, quite what you were getting at.

Rat, I agree, it is not a choice, because you do not have the choice about how you are socialised and stereotyped from birth. That is what 'gender' is, and you can't appropriate the gender of the opposite sex, becuase you have not been conditioned and socialised into that gender.

The other interesting thing here is how much of the activism is about sex, about sexual partners, about who will want you and whether they should want you and aren't they mean if they don't want you and so on.

Most previous activism has not foucssed nearly so much on getting sex - in fact the women's movement is in large part based in wanting not to be the object of sexual desire (to all and sundry from when we are too young).

I'm also still not at all sure about this signalling stuff.

I think people do wear stuff / present to show a part of subcultures - goth / indie and I see a lot of this as part of that - the blue hair and so on. It's all about every generation thinking they have discovered everything for the first time (especially sex ) and wearing "outrageous" stuff and saying oh these old people don't get it. That sort of signalling - yes. The sex thing - I'm not at all sure. I think some women may well do it - and gay men probably - what about straight men though how do they signal? And most women and girls are just trying to fit in / look "nice" / be fahsionable etc not thinking about signalling anything.

Most girls / young women don't need to signal anything in any way to have men coming at them from all directions.

This happens if you're out in a bin bag with your mates and glaring at anyone wh approaches.

The only way to stop it is to be out with a man.

In fact, lots of men take "no male in the group" to mean "green light avaialable women go for it". There is no need for signals of any other type past being visibly female (i.e. having tits is about all it takes).

Of course some would say this is part of the reason girls are the fastest growing trans group.

Read something earlier about prostitutes advising a young girl to bind her breasts and make her hair look dirty and manky to avoid being pimped can ask for a woman or a man here and another article about the impact on girls when their bodies start developing but I can't find it now.

also came across this while looking for the puberty story www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-44518892

It's no surprise to me whatsoever that when given an "out" of all this shit, girls jump at it. Why wouldn't they?

it's here

I have some serious ?? about some of the statements and implications in the article but it's still interesting and a topic that is relevant and not talked about much - that girls are seen as "fair game" as soon as their bodies start developing.

God yes. Women don’t need to signal availability. As soon as you hit puberty you’re harassed in the street in your school uniform. Of course girls are opting out. We have a pornified culture of male sexual entitlement - I feel so so sorry for this generation of girls. I want to transport them all to some sort of all girls boarding school or universe where they can grow into women without being leered at. I’m not surprised so many want to opt out.

Oh, I wasn't mentioning signalling in regards to sex to imply that this was the most important type; or even the most common. I think you're right, and that the subcultures thing is a really prevalent way in which it's used.

Do you think there's much signaling observable in lesbian communities? My lesbian friends would say so if they were here.

I think you're right that society being what it is women don't need to signal in order to be sexually approached or objectified. I don't think that's why we do it though; I think yes, we certainly do embody stereotypes for all the reasons of being penalised for non-conformity, certainly, but I think there is undeniably a biological urge to be recognised as what you are in the context of reproduction.

But like I say, I didn't bring it up because I think it's the most common or most important kind. I just think the social function of it is perhaps the most easily comorehensible; i.e. reproduction; so thought it was a good example to show how some stereotypes are leveraged by an individual for their own purpose, rather than exclusively imposed upon them for somebody else's.

Lesbians signalling what?

I might be able to help if you're a bit more spcific. Not being arsey - just not sure what you mean!

I dont' think I agree with this either "I think there is undeniably a biological urge to be recognised as what you are in the context of reproduction". Our bodies do this without need for any extras - the vast majority of post puberty people are recognisably male or female even with similar hair / no makeup / similar clothes.

If anything I'd think most women and girls would enjoy a way of being able to hide what we are in the context of reproduction (at least some of the time) and not get hassled on the street, sexually assaulted, shouted at, leered at, followed, raped etc etc from the age of way too young.

I think we're talking at cross purposes now Sardine, I thought we'd followed the same line in this conversation but I think actually we diverged a little way back. Not to worry, I won't rehash old posts to bring us back in line for now; not least because half time is nearly over in the football!

Yes I think so as well.

I would ask anyone here to find any child rape victim or trafficked woman who would
Have done ANYTHING to remove the biological ‘signalling’ that caused them the issues they have endured.

The fact is that you can not identify in or out of gender, to do so removes the element of gender which is intrinsically connected to sex class by definition.

Women can not identify out of their gender, it is impossible to. This is why regardless of ‘gender identity’ (I use this term as I can think of no other that won’t get my post banned) woman are still raped and attacked.