Would you have transitioned if you were a child today?

[isabeltydoria]

This question was asked on another forum, but I wanted to copy my answer here too and ask it here too (I hope that's okay?)

Would you have transitioned if you were a child today?

Just a yes or no would be interesting if you don't feel like commenting further; I'll put my (long!) reply into a comment.

@ChiefClerkDrumknott I think your feelings are pretty common. I know quite a few trans guys in relationships with each other who were both born biologically female. It just shows how separate gender and sexuality is.

I am a lesbian but nothing about being trans appeals to me at all. The male puberty trans guys go through apparently makes them feel hungry, hairy, sweaty and horny almost constantly. I have no idea why anyone would be tempted to go through this unless they were really desperate to be a man. Although I'm attracted to women I like my female body and would not want to be a hairy, sweaty man!

It’s impossible to say because I was an teenager in the 90s and sex and gender didn’t seem to be much of thing at that point. There were shit loads of GNC men and women in the bands I idolised and none of my male mates felt they couldn’t wear a dress or eyeliner on a night out (a la Kurt Cobain) and my female mates were mostly Tank Girl idolising Riot Grrl types.

Snogging anyone you fancied regardless of sex or professed sexuality was also very fashionable so there was no reason to tuck yourself into a neat little label.

Nowadays the kids with bright coloured hair seem to be calling themselves ‘non-binary’ so I guess I would’ve fallen into that habit. Of course, no one is binary when it comes to gender stereotypes anyway, so it’s pretty meaningless. How it’s justified as a reason for a double mastectomy is beyond me, mind you.

Absolutely not. I have never experienced the sort of self loathing about being a girl which seems so common on here.

My family and teachers never told me I couldn't do anything because I was a girl.

There was an expectation from an early age I would be going to university at a time when less than 10% of the population did. If any criticism could be made of the school it was that it treated its cleverest pupils, boys and girls, far better than the run of the mill majority. There was no suggestion at all that girls don't do science and maths (if anything I was pushed to do Maths to a level where it became obvious no amount of individual coaching was going to make a difference)

The school pushed sport for both. I suppose there was a division of hockey for girls and football for boys. I loathed PE and sport. I found sport boring and pointless and was very pleased that at one point I managed to get rid of one PE period for extra maths.

*I’ve also noticed women who could possibly have transitioned in their youth are now the strongest opponents to the trans ideology.

Perhaps it’s a feeling of relief at having escaped something terrible mixed with a slight twinge of envy at what could have been.*

I agree with the first statement.
The second one though, I have no envy at all for what could have been, or for children having these options available to them.
I have a sense of horror at what could have been, had surgical and medical options been available to me when I was an immature, vulnerable and unhappy teenager. I have a sense of horror that teens and pre teens are able to make decisions that have lifelong consequences at a stage when they are not able to understand fully the decisions they're making.

No. My dad encouraged me to be rough and tumble, wrestling, relishing jumping into the sea in winter, messing around in the garden, cross country, building fires, taking risks, climbing trees too high and letting me work out how to get down, defending myself physically, not indulging small fears (at the same time as encouraging the arty, ballet, playing with dolls, bookworm side) - but there was never any suggestion that I was a 'tomboy' or anything else than a girl. Because these things were entirely within the remit of 'girl'. My mum also very much on board with this e.g. pulling me up on 'lazy thinking' re: boys don't like this, this is for girls only etc.
I'm very glad they brought me up GNC (to a large degree) but it made me an outsider in some respects. I just had no idea why people talked about 'girly' and 'tomboy' non-ironically as it seemed so empty and specious, I just wondered why people were playing at this charade, but of course it's a locus of bonding and connection. The acquisition of social skills in children seems often to be bound up with passively gendering their worlds.

Although I'm attracted to women I like my female body and would not want to be a hairy, sweaty man!

I'm attracted to men but the thought of having a male body is not appealing.

JoyTheUnicorn beat me to it. I read 'envy' and thought 'horror'. People who medically transition don't actually change sex.

Thinking back, I was more clued up about biology and sex than most of my peers. I think I even knew back then that a sex change doesn't really mean what it says.

My sister and her best friend have both said they would have done if they had been teens now. They both struggled being girls and if it was as big a thing with teens then as it is now they'd have been right on it.

However they are thankful it wasn't and are now happy with their sex, just expressing it in their own way.

Oh yes. It was the 80s for me and I was desperate to have a "sex change". I was resentful of people who were born male, and resentful of girls who were "normal" and who were apparently comfortable with being female.

The honest truth? The feminists I read about in Spare Rib, and whose work I then went on to read, gave me a new perspective and helped me unravel the mess of anger and confusion I was experiencing. They showed me it was okay and healthy to be a girl who wasn't "like the others", and that pretending to be a man would not solve the frustration I felt at sex inequality and the world's bias towards men.

I imagine if you put 50 trans guys in a room in 20 years and asked them if they were happy with the decision they made in their youth (ie to transition or not) the majority would say they made the right choice and couldn't have imagined living a happy life if they had hadn't transitioned. And there would probably be 2 or 3 trans guys who wished they hadn't transitioned - would it be fair to say none of the trans guys should have done it because a few regretted it?

I was messed up enough as a teenager that I think I might have, if it had been presented to me as an option. I was a total misfit, had few friends, and those I did have were boys. I wasn't a tomboy exactly, but I preferred hanging round with the geeky lads because I was a shy swot and could relate to them. The girls in my school were very cliquey and gossipy, and could be very cruel. I felt totally out of place among them.

I was also desperately uncomfortable and self conscious about my developing body. My confidence was non-existent. I think I would have grabbed at any opportunity to identify out of that discomfort.

Post-puberty, that all went away. I am so glad gender identity wasn't being pushed back then.

Very interesting question.

For a long time I rejected female stereotypes and as a child I thought that meant rejectingbeing female.

Obviously now I’m older I’m fine with being female but I’m still rejecting the stereotypes.

I’ve realised that I’m not the problem, society’s expectations and treatment of women are the problem.

But back then there was no internet or pressure to be a boy from adults, was there?

And envy? God no. Horror. Utter, utter horror at what is being done to children. This is going to be this generation’s pivotal scandal. It’s heartbreaking.

Timoplop, I still have my ancient copy of ‘Girls are Powerful - Young Women’s Letters to Spare Rib’. It’s both cringey and brilliant, all at once!

The thought that I was actually a boy inside never occurred to me as a teen but also transitioning was something I’d heard about.

But like many teenagers I went through a large amount of self loathing both of my body and myself generally. And if you’re in that position I can certainly see how a narrative that the problem is you’re in the wrong body could be very attractive. After all that would mean none of it was my fault, the problem would be I’ve been trapped in tha wrong body, no wonder I am unhappy. And I can take myself out of many of the expectations of girls.

And so I wonder whether some of the teens who seek to transition are finding solace in that who would in prior years have been in the grips of eating disorders or self harm. Not that trans and those issues are mutually exclusive of course.

Women are hairy and sweaty as well, just sayin'

I imagine if you put 50 trans guys in a room in 20 years and asked them
would it be fair to say none of the trans guys should have done it because a few regretted it?

You are wanting an answer which is based on total speculation here. I could just as easily speculate that most would regret it, its meaningless to rational debate.

The key issue here is the ethics of irreversible, unproven (in the safety sense) treatment being given to children who may or may not have gender dysphoria. When the first page of advice you get when googling "trans" and "teens" is "Yes you are trans" you are not getting good, objective advice you are getting propaganda.

daim, I don't think anyone is suggesting that they shouldn't transition. It's the idea that at 8/9/10/11/12 etc children should be put onto puberty blockers and then onto cross sex hormones that's the issue. Preventing puberty also prevents the normal development of self that often resolves any issues as described here.

Daim what is the point of discussing statistics you have made up?

There is a need for real research.

www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-41384473

If I had transitioned and I was looking back over the last 20 or so years, I wonder if my life trajectory would have fit my trans-self because marriage and children probably wouldn't have figured in that life.
I think looking back as an adult, as a parent, the horror is because I can see how those decisions would have meant I wouldn't have children, wouldn't have breastfed them.
I am very logical about things, and I think that would have meant that eventually transition would feel like a lie, because XX will never equal XY. I also think had I never been able to accept myself for who I am, my life could easily have ended up in a narcissistic cycle of mememememe, which is very easy to identify amongst the majority of transwomen, and I don't think that's healthy for anyone, mentally or wrt relationships. Validation at all costs is never good.

Twinges of relief not twinges of regret surely. Relief that we were able to grow up and process puberty without blockers, binders etc.

Certainly. Its not even a probably for me, its certainly.

Along with the usual GNC behaviour, once I hit puberty I srarted to drastically self harm, and in a way that would be consistent with sex dysphoria. I was also extremely manipulative, and if there was a way I knew about for me to be able to block puberty, I would have lied my way into it. But even without the lies, I would think how much I hated being female would have me a prime candidate anyway for blockers. And once on blockers, my brain may not have matured to the stage that is necessary to reverse such a decision, not before the cross sex hormones started anyway.

ROGD pretty accurately describes how I felt at that age. It was all based on how others treat me though, which is how I think it is with many female children today. I wasn't too fussed about being female as such, though periods scared the shit out of me. It was the way my developing body gained me the attention of a disturbing amount of fully grown men, almost overnight.

@AssassinatedBeauty I do agree it should never be done lightly and only in very rare cases such as to avoid the child committing suicide.

would it be fair to say none of the trans guys should have done it because a few regretted it?

What do you mean by ‘should have done it’ ?

Puberty blockers are incredibly powerful drugs with lifelong negative impacts. They are not the harmless pause button they are pushed as. They have effects across multiple systems and they are not pleasant effect: cognitive damage of about 8IQ points. Brain fog, metabolic changes like fat deposition changes, osteoporosis and of course all the hormonal effects.

To treat all 50 children who are questioning their identity with such drugs is in my opinion a gross breach of ethics. It’s an irreversible pathway, not a pause button. Once you’re in those drugs you’re pretty much committed - you will never experience a normal puberty, and even with cross sex hormones you won’t because a Male cannot undergo a female puberty. You will be sterile - sperm and ova do not mature until a specific stage of puberty. You will be unlikely to experience a normal sex life. The effects on the brain are largely unknown - passage through puberty is important for brain development too.

So if the question is ‘would they regret it?’ Then that’s up to them but statistically it seems a fair number would. Only they can tell you if they ‘should’ have done it.

If the question is ‘is it ethical to treat the entire population of young people if not all will continue to question this gender?’ Then the answer is NO.

Incidentally I believe this is why the suicide stats are pushed so much. The impact of these drugs and this one way treatment pathway is so great and so extreme that it can only be justified if the alternative is death.

No, I wouldn't have. I was a tomboy in some respects, but never felt being a girl was wrong. I HATED the way being a girl meant that I was prevented from doing certain things, and expected to do others by my very traditional, religious parents. But that only extended to home life and domestic work. Educationally they supported me.

But I had older sisters and a large group of female cousins with such a large range of interests, some conformed to stereotypical behavior, others rebelled against it and did whatever they hell they pleased. There wasn't a set path that I was expected to follow.

I also had a lot of male cousins that I was friends with, the older ones looked out for me. Males weren't 'othered' for me. Most of them were not part of the strict religious church (drank and smoke in a 'hell and damnation' church!) so they were frowned on themselves, so NEVER judged me.

I agree with Lass to an extent. However, I was raised with sisters and brothers but the boys seemed to get the most in the lions share and of course the girls did more housework! I went to an all girls school as well which may have helped - both my daughters went to an all girl school. My son to an all boys.

However, I had a mother who was top of her career and we had a housekeeper. I was taught to be independent from a very early age in my life. I did have small boobs and a boyish figure post puberty.

That all changed post second pregnancy and definitely with the third - he was exclusively breast fed for six months.

Would I want my boyish/girly figure back? No. I have accepted the changes to my body, relished being pregnant and am now looking forward to my sixties!