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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I am going to ask what is hopefully a very clear question about the new guidelines...

34 replies

BeyondSceptical · 16/06/2018 13:00

We have been told - as I interpret it - that we can only refer to the sex of a transperson if it is directly relevant to the post.

However, in the feminism section, surely the biology and socialisation of a person will always be relevant? Whether (to nick two examples) the post is about what sex someone providing intimate care is, or whether the post is about how someone behaved in the queue at Sainsbury's.

This is what is confusing me, and as far as I can see what is confusing other posters too.

OP posts:
Ereshkigal · 16/06/2018 19:52

See, that is what is making me antsy about posting anything. Yay for the kind of feminism where women have to police their own thoughts...

This. I thought they wanted to allow discussion?

ScienceIsTruth · 16/06/2018 19:52

Can't remember who or where, but some clever soul made a point the other day, that I think is worth repeating, and possibly getting clarification on from @MNHQ.

The point in question was that if we aren't allowed to say transwomen are men because it's mentioning sex, then surely it's only fair that the phrase transwomen are women should also not be allowed.

ZibbidooZibbidooZibbidoo · 16/06/2018 19:56

Good point science.

Does anyone know if I’m allowed to say that a person identifies as a woman? Its not mentioning their sex.

ZibbidooZibbidooZibbidoo · 16/06/2018 19:57

Sorry, i’ll go read the thread that possibly answers my question! Grin

ScienceIsTruth · 16/06/2018 19:58

@garam, do you mean men?

If you do, you don't need a prefix in front of it. We all know who and what men are.

thebewilderness · 16/06/2018 19:59

Maybe, as many actual feminists in fact do, centre the discussion on non-trans males who benefit most?

We center the discussion on women's rights. Not men or transgender.
We are actual Feminists which is why we center our discussion on women's rights, not men or transgender.

Feminists are not responsible for the frequency or transgenders and men starting threads to talk about themselves.

Picassospaintbrush · 16/06/2018 20:04

We do seem to have lost Gibberty snipperty though, so there are some things to smile ☺ about.

ArcheryAnnie · 16/06/2018 20:05

There are a plethora of feminist sites that barely mention trans people

And you know why this is? Because women who talk about their own oprression, and who refuse to lie about the fact that it's impossible to change sex, have been banned from those sites and their posts deleted.

It's not that women in other places don't want to talk about this issue. It's that they are not allowed to.

Ihuntmonsters · 16/06/2018 20:59

But the movement is cultlike, if you look at descriptions as to how cults work it is fairly obvious. RedToothBrush (think that's the right handle) has written some excellent posts in the past about how cults operate and it totally ring true. The only thing that transactivism does that most cults can't is to preach at state schools (with the sanction of the state).

Ally I don't think you are being quite honest with your categorisation. Your first statement is the sort of convoluted speech that I think gender critical femionists are being forced to make:

'[X transwoman] has said [Y] on Twitter about [Z]. I do not believe they understand the impact of [Z] on women because [eg they were raised with the benefits of male socialisation/they do not have the same reproductive issues as women/they are likely to be more physically able to defend themself from men compared to women.]'

where for all the text in [] one would normally say [they are a man] or [they are male] or [they are not a woman] but feel that this might be deleted and so can no longer be said without risking suspension.

I agree that the second statement might well be deleted and count as a strike:

'Look at what [X transwoman] has said on Twitter. He is so stupid. Did I mention that he is biologically male and always will be?'

The question is on what grounds. Is it because of the 'he', because it contains a personal attack 'stupid' or because of saying that X is 'biologically male'? or is it because X is likely to be tracking any comments that use their name and will kick up a fuss about anything that isn't completely affirming? Would the revised statement below pass:

'Look at what [X transwoman] has said on Twitter. What a stupid thing to say. Did I mention that they are biologically male and always will be?'

That has no personal attack (at least in line with mumsnet's usual guidance that you can say that someone has said something stupid so long as you don't call them stupid) and does not use a pronoun a named transperson has rejected and states a biological fact which mumsnet has said also is permissible.

If it's not OK then mumsnet has become somewhere which is policing heresy (going back to the cult affinity there, although most cults are only able to police their own members) or has been forced to moderate as if it is in a permanent state of siege, in which case it's more like the [she who cannot be mentioned] days, in which case it would be good to have a list of those who are on the attack so that they can be refered to obliquely and not put mumsnet at risk.

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