Would I be wrong to leave the b**stard?

[ScienceIsTruth]

George Washington once said: " If freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter".

With these new guidelines in place, Mumsnet is starting to feel like an emotional abuser. Dictating what I can and cannot say, forcing me to lie and go against my morals and beliefs, and by using words in a dishonest manner in order to appease a group that can NEVER be appeased, and whose demands will only escalate.

I have Aspergers, and I've spent most of my life being bullied, so the truth is important to me, and it is distressing to me to be told that I must lie, or else face deletion. I have a degree in biochemistry and physiology, and I see science as searching for the truth. Biology is immutable and real, and I can't understand why I'm being expected to lie and pretend that it doesn't exist.

I thought that the EA 2010 protected SEX, and our right to hold beliefs, so why are MN putting one groups set of beliefs above mine? Why are they deemed more important? Why is the fact that making me lie about my deeply held beliefs, and causing me distress is ok, when MN are then saying we mustn't upset men, or women, who find reality offensive?

MN is meant to be a place for WOMEN run by WOMEN, so why are they allowing MEN, and mentally disturbed ones at that, to dictate to them? MN is a private business (as far as I'm aware) and as such is allowed to set it's own rules, so why are they kowtowing to outside influences? It's almost like they've been conditioned to 'be nice'.

Lying makes me uncomfortable and stresses me out, and that's without the deliberate misuse of our language where we use he/him to refer to males. My life is confusing enough without having to police my own thoughts.

I feel like I've stepped into the pages of 1984, where Newspeak and Doublespeak reign, and even our thoughts are seen as crimes. It is utter madness, and feels like emotional abuse, to be told we must lie and change our language (and the meaning of words) so as not offend a small minority of people. Especially when those people have the choice to simply NOT come onto this site.

You'd think it would tell MN something that these people are hunting down things to be upset about. To me, it screams that this is about power and control; just like all abusers.

The fact that MN are going along with it, and demanding that women bow down to the will of these men, makes them just as bad (if not worse) than the TRAs that set this in motion.

To my mind, MN are themselves behaving as an emotional abuser does, so should we LTB?

As Salman Rushdie once said: " The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible".

Also, another favourite quote of mine from George Orwell seems rather apt: "If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they don't want to hear".

Thanks for reading this far. I know I'm not as eloquent as most posters on here are, but I hope I've made myself clear enough.

I welcome all comments, including those that disagree with me.

Great post, and yes there is no doubt that @MNHQ has given little to no thought on how limiting free speech in the ways they propose is ableist, and they should deal with that asap and respond to the many posters who raised this.

I think @MNHQ should also reconsider their position. I hate terms like cis and terf but absolutely support the right of people who want to use these terms being able to use them, because I support free speech and I understand I do not have a right to not to be offended and I am not obliged to read what I don't want to or engage where I don't want to on this board. The fact that women on these boards generally feel this way, but the TA's/MRA's want our speech to be controlled (and much more so than @MNHQ has said they will) speaks not to a group that isn't comfortable here, but to a group who wants to control what women say, a group that largely doesn't engage here and never will. This is all about male control.

I think it will take some time to see how these new guidelines pan out before we can all understand how bad it will be. As said elsewhere, if their guidelines are an attempt to only accept 'transwoman' for men who say they are women, then that is not just coerced speech, but also does the very thing to the women on these boards that MN are claiming referring to sex does to men who say they are women - i.e. makes the board unwelcoming - and that is in addition to preventing the gender critical viewpoint from being expressed. But I don't think that is what they're doing, I think they just don't want us to use the term 'male' for men who say they are women (worth noting they clearly don't view 'man' and 'woman' as sex terms) and if that's wrong then I will let @MNHQ tell me what terms they find acceptable that don't coerce women to refer to men as women(!).

And more generally I am still of the opinion that staying is the strongest act of resistance here, considering that the whole reason TA's/MRA's have focused on Mumsnet is to get gender critical women/feminists banned and/or FWR closed.

Is rape a case of conflicting rights?

Because that's what it feels like MN is asking - for us as women to lie there quietly whilst some guy has his way - there is a crude way of putting this but I will stay couth.

Workplace bullying is an abuse of power or authority which attempts to undermine an individual or group of employees, and which may cause them to suffer work related stress.

Thank you for all your responses and kind words.

@Bowl, I'm glad you're staying as your posts are always interesting, and your arguments and knowledge are well thought out and informative. I always enjoy reading your posts and am usually nodding along as I do so.

@JoyTheUnicorn, same here. I've learnt a lot from MN about abusers, and really thought that this was a safe space away from them for many people, so to find out that they're behaving similarly is quite worrying, and confusing, to me.

@gendercritter, I have fibromyalgia (amongst other things) and I'm on morphine permanently, so my mind is often foggy, which also makes it hard for me to remember to use Doublethink/Newspeak terms as they're NOT factually correct and it's not natural for me to use incorrect terms. I'm too tired to police my own thoughts that much, and tbh, I don't want to.

Thanks, @Artemis7, and I think that you're correct: our rights don't seem to be as important as men's rights, not even to other WOMEN! Again I am reminded of George Orwell, in particular a quote from Animal Farm about "We are all equal, but some are more equal than others".

@lovetheway, yes, me too. For example, I was shopping yesterday and used a self checkout and needed 2 of their carrier bags. When I tried to pay for the bags, there was no option like there usually is, and by the time I'd completed the transaction, I'd still not been able to pay for them. I ended up going and queuing at the customer services bit and explained to them that I'd taken 2 bags, but it hadn't let me pay for them so could I pay for them there. It was only 20p, but I couldn't have left the shop without trying everything possible to pay for them as it would've been wrong and dishonest not to. The staff member couldn't believe that I was 'owning up' to not being charged for them when no one would've known. I just explained to her that I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I hadn't tried, and that I'd have been unable to shop there again as the stress of being dishonest would be too great.
Now I'm being asked to lie with potentially every post I make and, like Sheldon Cooper, it makes me want to rip my face off and tear it into little pieces.

I was severely bullied between the ages of 4 and 14, and as an adult, I swore to myself that I'd stand up to bullies whenever I encountered them in the future. That I'd no longer be cowed, and that I'd teach my children by example that you stand up for what is right.
It Martin Luther King, Jnr, that said: "There comes a time when a moral man can't obey a law which his conscience tells him is unjust" and " In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends". I think he was a very wise man.

@prawn, yes, trapped is a word that sums it up quite concisely. What do we do about it though? Do we gnaw our own leg off to escape the trap, or do we just give up and wait for death?

Once you see past the illusion of transgenderism you just can't go back to calling men anything other than men because that's what you see them as.

Everyone is going to slip up eventually, I've already done it once and called someone 'him' without even thinking about it. So that's 1 strike for me and we are only one day into the new regime. I'll be off to the gulag before the weekend is out I think.

And more generally I am still of the opinion that staying is the strongest act of resistance here, considering that the whole reason TA's/MRA's have focused on Mumsnet is to get gender critical women/feminists banned and/or FWR closed.

Definitely.

Gosh, I am slow at typing. A lot more replies appeared whilst I was composing my last post.
Sorry, I have rheumatoid arthritis and it affects my hands badly, so please excuse my slowness in replying. That, and I need frequent breaks else my hands seize up. I also sometimes need to read something several times for it to penetrate the fog in my brain. for understanding.

@leyat, really good post, and I agree with you that it's probably what the TRAs want; for us all to leave and shut up talking about that pesky biology, which gets in the way and hurts their feelz.

I'm just shocked that @JustineMumsnet has thrown us under the bus like this. I really believed that they would NOT capitulate to bullies and it seems that I was wrong.

I'm staying, though I haven't quite figured out what is and isn't allowed when trying to refer to people who believe that their "stereotypical-sex-role inner self doesn't match the dangly or non-dangly bits between the legs they were born with."

SSRISDMTDONDBBTLTWBW is a bit of a mouthful as an acronym.

I have little interest in the whole transdebate but I do find it odd that MN gives a shit. Loads of people dislike MN. So what? Why does it matter if certain gransactivists have taken a dislike too?

Nothing to add, but I’m also autistic, truthful, stubborn and a doctor.
I loved every word of your post. I’m staying on MN to try and defend the truth, women’s rights and scientific fact, against a tide of TRA misogynistic, vitriolic nonsense.
I believe that the silent majority of reasonable trans gender people are probably appalled at the violent AGPs hijacking their agenda and shooting themselves in the foot by their pushing of self ID, invasion of women’s sports, refuges, changing rooms etc. There will be a backlash when the wider population realise what all this entails.

gransactivists

This typo gave me a bit of much needed light relief. I bet Gransactivists would be much more sensible than TRAs!

Thanks, @Babdoc. You're probably right, we really need the more reasonable people to also make a stand and say "Not in our name!". I know it's easier to sit back and hope someone else deals with it, but I think we need everyone's voice in this. Silence is seen as agreement.

Lol, @Racecardriver and @Ereshkigal, maybe they become gransactivists once they reach a certain age???

Thanks for your posts too, Ereshkigal, as with most other posters on FWR, I always enjoy reading your posts.

You're probably right, we really need the more reasonable people to also make a stand and say "Not in our name!". I know it's easier to sit back and hope someone else deals with it, but I think we need everyone's voice in this. Silence is seen as agreement.

We do. People keep telling people not to leave but they don't seem to respect that some people will not refer to males as women out of principle.

Thanks for your posts too, Ereshkigal, as with most other posters on FWR, I always enjoy reading your posts.

Thank you

Italics fail

Yes OP, it is exactly the behaviour of an abuser, or at best an abuse enabler, I know, I’ve been there. You’ll say what you’re told, otherwise you’ll be punished. In time you‘ll learn to moderate your speech and ideas to stay safe.
MN have thrown us in front of the bus. We’ll be safe if we don’t move too much, but only for now, because the bus will move. Who is driving the bus though, that’s the question.

This part of mumsnet is for feminists.

Feminists are women who oppose rule by men, and want to liberate women from it.

Men have stormed in and demanded we be silenced, banned, and shut down for saying things they think are anti man.

If they think this section of mumsnet is saying things that oppose them then why come here?

It's exactly the same as a far right Tory joining a Marxist forum and complaining about all the criticism of capitalism they are witnessing, and demanding it be stopped, and that people using expressions such as "surplus of labour" and "exploitation of the masses" be banned.

They have no right to stop us chatting amongst ourselves.

I want to stay here, but I will police neither my thoughts nor my words beyond what I deem necessary. If I want to say anyone with a penis, no matter if he is wearing a dress, or lipstick, or has grown his hair or taken artificial hormones, is a male member of the species, then I damn well will.

I am polite and use preferred pronouns for those who are polite and aware the their feeling of being female is perhaps not the worlds perception. Anyone bellowing about lady dick, or being a trans lesbian can get to fuck quite frankly.

MN have thrown us in front of the bus. We’ll be safe if we don’t move too much, but only for now, because the bus will move. Who is driving the bus though, that’s the question.

This is so true.

I have just been told on another thread that transwoman without a space is transphobic and I must use trans woman. Linguistic denial apparently.

I haven’t actually come across that before - has anyone else? Would welcome some clarification on this one as I am genuinely trying to keep within guidelines here

Gender ID apparently trumps every other protected characteristic including sex and disability, so things are going to get 'interesting' very quickly.

I haven’t actually come across that before - has anyone else? Would welcome some clarification on this one as I am genuinely trying to keep within guidelines here

Yes I've come across this demand from transactivists many times but I don't think that is an MN guideline. But no surprise that they are pushing this as far as they can. You won't get any thanks for saying "transwoman". Because they want to shut all this discussion down, especially things like your clear headed scientific approach.

Bowl it may be more a Twitter thing, but 'trans woman' is what TA's use because they want trans to be a descriptor for 'woman', i.e trans is just a type of woman, whereas 'transwoman' is a term feminists have often opted for on Twitter as a way of saying they aren't a type of woman, rather simply dysphoric males or whatever. So transwoman can actually be a term of refusal to submit, but I'm still not using it here due to the context of the new guidelines and the elevation of mens feelings over women and feminism and the fact the difference would not be clear usually....

(...but that is why whenever I have used the term transwoman i have done so without the space, i.e. to acknowledge that whatever they call themselves they are not women)

Thanks both. So the word woman is what is insisted on.

I find it interesting that ‘Linguistic denial’ of the word woman is OK for somebody who is biologically male to enforce on someone who is biologically female as a descriptor for the biologically male person. I am a woman, because, as is defined scientifically, I am an adult member of the class that bears young and produces ova. And I am being told that I am now denied the use of the scientifically correct word for my class and furthermore that me NOT using the word to describe someone not in that class is an aggressive act.

How very interesting.