The reason why the UK is so important in the Trans battle: why we matter as the "tipping-point"

[loveyouradvice]

I have only recently realised why we are so important in this strategy and why Trans resources will be poured into the UK..... and why, if (and when) we win this for girls and women, it will be so significant.

On another thread, someone posted that:
the population of the UK is bigger than the total of all the populations of the countries that have legalised Self-Id put together.

If that is true, it is a very scarey thought.....and I suspect it is

All the other countries who have legalised it are TINY in terms of population - small numbers where managing anything controversial should be so much easier......And we have already seen the problems it is causing within these countries.

Apologies if you have already realised this - I hadn't and it has made me aware of how very important it is to win this for women and girls.

Also it's culturally a bit of a tipping point. America would be the big win but with Trump and the conservative backlash the trans lobby won't make a lot of headway there.

The UK is culturally fairly progressive so transgender idealogy can get a foot in the door. Once the UK falls, expect Australia, Canada, and New Zealand to look at following soon after. We are all very closely culturally and politically linked.

As an Australian I feel a bit stuck. If I point out the madness that's happening in the UK I feel I will be met with "We'll that's not here, you can't worry about everything that happens in other countries." but if we wait until it gets a foothold here then it's already subconsciously entrenched and "well the UK already has these laws, it's not that revolutionary" will be a defense.

I am certain the UK is the fulcrum.

We are somewhat unique in our approach to this and have benefitted from oversight of the disastrous changes in Canada etc. We had our heads up.

Mumsnet and the various feminist bloggers got this on the radar years ago and it has built.

We've also organised earlier on.

It really is very David and Goliath though. There is huge funding and PR behind the trans movement but our weapons are logic, fairness, wit, fact and debate.
Oh, and truth.

Oh, and truth.

In New Zealand they are trying to push self-ID at the moment. In Australia it passed in South Australia and the ACT, but failed in Victoria by 1 vote. Those are all the progressive states which is where you'd expect it to pass first.

Australia also removed the court requirement for under-18 access to hormones late last year as well which was a financial roadblock that stopped most children transitioning, now it's going to a be a free-for-all with hormones available at any age with a doctor's approval.

I'm really proud actually, we are definitely at the forefront of the backlash.

Trans people can have their own spaces and services where sex segregation is necessary, as well as their own inclusion initiatives on the basis of being trans. They can be protected from being discriminated against for being trans, i.e. protected from losing work/suchlike. They are free to believe what they want about gender, to choose their own labels and to debate what they wish. They are also free to live and express themselves how they wish. And like all of us they have their human rights. And indeed they can have their own movement to address any inequalities/oppression they feel they face due to the shared characteristic of identifying as trans.

Trans rights do not in any way need to impact on the sex based rights of women and girls, and if trans people were treated the same way as all other protected classes - i.e. If we were all to be treated equally - they would have their specific rights as outlined above and would not be encroaching on/overriding the rights of another class of people. There is no compromise here, asking women and girls to compromise is just gaslighting, we do not have to give up any of our rights for trans equality, we are losing our rights for trans supremacy. We are losing our rights for trans people to have their identity validated, not to because this is necessary for them to be treated equally.

That we are fighting this gaslighting as well as the attack on feminism that is gender identity/idea of innate gender is something we can all be proud of. We are not submitting and it's awesome :D

I am certain the UK is the fulcrum
Me too barracker. I agree will what you and others have said. It is vital to carry on. MN is part of it.

Women in other countries have said they're inspired by Woman's Place and We Need To Talk. But it does mean that TRA have had to declare open warfare and it is very intimidating.

It really is very David and Goliath though. There is huge funding and PR behind the trans movement but our weapons are logic, fairness, wit, fact and debate.

This is a misconception. Tens of millions of Brits don't want a damaging genderology imposed on kids. Millions don't want fetish normalised at work. Many many millions expect sex segregation.

Pratchet, it is very intimidating but, although I'm a bit of a coward, I find the attacks make me more determined to stick up for women and girls, not less. I was busting to go to the Hastings meeting but it would take me about 7 hours round trip and I couldn't do/afford it.

The conduct of aggressive ideologues online makes me certain that the issue is far more serious than I thought originally. The way they communicate with women is very telling.

I think British people are less likely to be sucked into trans ideology than the Canadians and Americans. We are more likely to call out nonsense. Less likely to follow fads. Less concerned with being politically correct. Less open to change. We'll be polite and accommodating but only so far. We're aware of our history and not a newly founded culture.

the attacks make me more determined to stick up for women and girls

yes

the astonishing footage of the Bristol meeting made me start going to Women's place meetings. 2 so far, many more to follow I hope.

If people think they can intimidate me into changing my mind on this they can piss right off.

and yes, I do think the world is watching the UK in this. we've got to find a way forward that respects everyone's rights, including those of women and girls to the privacy, safety and dignity afforded by facilities separated on the basis of SEX .

I always think of Kristina Jayne Harrison's piece about identity politics and the impact on transsexuals, and the phrase she wrote "we are a very tiny and vulnerable minority".

The aggressive sexual rights motives of cross dressers are in direct conflict with theirs too.

More determined, I agree...and Reluctant that is why I outlined above how trans rights - if based on equality - absolutely would not infringe on the rights of women and girls, the only reason it is is because they want their identity validated, and to do this they don't want equality, they want to override our rights. It's gaslighting. And there is no compromise. We all deserve to be treated equally and that means to be treated distinctly.

I'm American and Canadian and the reason I'm here on MN is because you UK women ARE on the front line. Your country has been the model of other Western countries and so everyone will look to you.

If you win this battle, other women in other countries will have a template and follow suit.

This is why I KNOW I have to support y'all and yesterday in my livestream I sent a bunch of women here to MN.

My impression was that Canada and the US are further down the rabbit hole that us. I'm Canadian/British and horrified by what's happening over there.

mancheeze are you free to share a url for your livestream?

It has been recommended by the European Commission so there are many countries looking at it including Sweden etc.

There are 5 countries in Europe that currently do legal gender recognition by self ID.

34 require a diagnosis.

There are 5 small countries in Europe that currently do legal gender recognition by self ID.

The European Court of Human Rights ruled last year that there is no breach of human rights if a country requires a diagnosis of gender dysphoria before granting a change of legal sex, so there is no pressure on governments to bring in such a law.

A.P., Garçon and Nicot v. France

I think the important difference about the current situation in the UK is that there is a debate. Everywhere else (and previously in the UK) changes have been made largely under the radar. Bill C-16 (adding the protections on the ground of 'gender identity or expression' in Canada for example was hardly discussed at all before being made into law. This is partly because Canada is federated and there was already legislation in place at the provincial level in many provinces, and partly I think because in general Canadians are not very politically active plus after a very right wing government the current liberal government was still getting a fairly easy ride.

In my province very similar anti-discrimination legislation was passed in 2016 (and again I'm not aware of any associated debate) and the process for changing 'gender designation' was changed in 2014 (as an amendment to the Vital Statistic Act, although it was called 'sex designation' there) so that all that was needed was the individual to complete a form with the support of another form from a doctor (psychologist, surgeon or physician) stating:
I confirm that the applicant’s gender identity does not align with the “sex” designation on their government-issued ID.'

After this all ID including birth certificates get changed as if you had been born the sex you wish to be identified as. Interestingly the doctor can be punished for fraudulently completing their form but there are no sanctions mentioned for the individual, who simply has to declare:

'I have assumed, identify with and intend to maintain the gender identity that corresponds with the requested change
in gender designation'

Children can use the same form but their parents/guardians have to sign to say that the give their consent.

So pretty much self ID with very loose touch gate keeping. It costs $30, although you probably have to pay the doctor something.

Most provinces started off with a requirement for surgery before changing sex designation on official records but removed the requirement because of successful law suits which seem to have been very badly defended eg:

'"When asked, at the presentation of this application, how it could possibly matter that a person born male, but who has transitioned and lives female, have a birth certificate that says they are female, counsel for Alberta could offer no answer."

If I point out the madness that's happening in the UK I feel I will be met with "We'll that's not here, you can't worry about everything that happens in other countries."

Same here Bloodmagic. Gosh, even tried alerting my sister and her friend to it the other night - my sister was well confident that "it could never happen, noooo".

Most of Australia will be by stealth I think. Plus large country geographically, harder to meet F2F.

I too am in Australia and am disgusted by the recent change to permit hormones to people under the age of 18 with only the approval of a doctor. They should have counselling before taking such a life altering step.

And LaSqrrl is probably correct that most of the changes to Australian legislation will be by stealth.

Not happy, Jan. (Reference to an Australian add that became a saying.)

The UK still punches considerably above its weight in relation to both size and population. Also the fact that these conversations are taking place in English makes them readable to a minority of people all over the world. If the UK tilts back towards sanity then other countries will follow, which is why lots of people are devoting lots of time to preventing that from happening.

Hadn't thought of the language issue, AngryAttackKittens. Great point.

Also the UK normally has such a raucous political culture, and such a high cultural tolerance for pisstaking, that the stifling of debate and attempts to punish people for not treating this issue with absolute seriousness stand out more in a British context, which I think is part of the reason why there's a debate happening. Not being allowed to talk about something topical and the complete cultural freeze around making fun of gender identity is so alien to most Brits that it's harder to ignore than in a culture that tends more towards deference or where politics is more polite in general.