The Gender Critical Autistic Women’s Thread

[SporadicSpartacus]

I never thought i’d be starting a thread aimed at such a very specific demographic, but there do seem to be a few of us out there.

Anyway, I thought we could use this thread to talk about the interactions of being autistic and participating in the sex/gender debate.

I think it’s particularly relevant as a lot of the argument hinges on clarity (or obfuscation) of language - when many autistic people need clear and unambiguous language to be able to understand, process information and express our own points of view.

Credentials/about me: i’m 31, diagnosed with ASD (Aspergers presentation) last year, and awaiting an assessment for ADHD. I am female, bisexual and married to a man. I’m not a mother yet, although would like to be- and have found Mumsnet very welcoming regardless.

A folder will also help if you ever have the misfortune of having to go through a DWP assessment...

And for DC apply for DLA before diagnosis.

I worry about applying for dla or pip.
My DC are able to mask which means they are hellish at home (am on here hiding from an hour of mutually assured VR-related yelling) but are OK in other settings mostly.
The older they get the more they mask the worse they are at home.
Obv they are lovely and brilliant and stuff but I'm knackered.

Anyway so I dropped my hours last year so I could help them all more but I'm not sure if that would be enough evidence.

It's mostly just me witnessing meltdowns

Reasons in favour of pip - currently paying for private psychotherapy for one kid and a gym membership for another who finds it helpful to swim.

Travelling is a nightmare as I can't drive and one can't go on the bus. Or can't do it often and it wears him out.

We’re digressing quite a bit here but my son got first DLA and later transferred to PIP without a face to face assessment

If you have collated enough evidence in your file and you give permission to contact a named professional, you may be able to just speak to someone on the phone.

Basically, apply for everything and if you get turned down, well, you are no worse off than before.

The absolute best thing we ever got was Occupational Therapy. Waited three years on the list but we both gained a lot of understanding from it.

DLA for children means it is still a more forgiving system. I did, and I would advise anybody to, get CAB (or LA welfare rights) to fill in the application form with you.

DD’s was effectively rubber stamped whilst my friend who filled it in herself had to go all the way to appeal.

PIP is appalling. I have MS and the whole thing destroyed me without me even getting to the assessment (they were telling me I had to travel because they had decided I could and I should ‘just get childcare’ for DD who even the LA can’t manage) TBH. I just gave up and the case closed.

It would be very interesting to me to understand whether there is a relationship between being GC (or a radical feminist) and being autistic. I suspect so given gender is a social construct.

Also interesting in relation to puberty+ASD in girls seeming to lead to gender identity referrals.

Namechanged specially for this thread, it was about time for a change anyway

SuperLoud I've noticed on some of the autistic women's groups I'm in that there can be a difference between "self-diagnosed" (I believe I would meet the criteria for diagnosis but can't get a referral / don't have the energy to chase / don't think it would make much difference) and "self-identified" (I identify with autism and am now going to make a pain in the arse of myself even though I have no intention of seeking a dx and probably wouldn't meet the criteria)

I don't talk about gender in autism groups. The combination of rigid / obsessive thinking, plus sense of tribe-seeking, plus lovely little interesting categories, can make the current fifty-billion-plus gender identities very appealing to autistic people, and for those who find them helpful, I don't want to make their lives any harder by going on a massive gender rant.

Offred I think there's a correlation between taking a rigid position and being autistic - whether that is more where I find myself, which is that there are two sexes, gender is an invention, and anybody identifying as a frappamappaqueericorn genderccino is welcome to do so but will ultimately be disappointed - or towards the other end which is that gender is observable reality, capable of being both innate and chosen, and that our sex isn't relevant.

I haven't met very many autistic women who take a middle position!

ClownStar agree about not going on a gender rant - but how do you handle it when others start to proselytise about gender at you? I just tried to bite my tongue, but I found it really upsetting and invalidating to effectively feel as though my views didn’t matter.

It might have been easier if the facilitators had been better at keeping the discussions on track - but the gender zealots just took over (very stereotypically male behaviour there!)

I got a formal diagnosis 2 years ago in my late 30s. I had suspected for a long time, and strongly for a year or so after reading about "female" presentation.
People I have told have assumed I am self-diagnosed. I have had to re-educate a few "we're all on the spectrum" people.
I would say I am probably pan sexual. I'm in a heterosexual marriage but if single I could fall in love with a woman, trans person, non-binary etc. Personality is more important to me than the shell. I'd still love DH if he came out.
I didn't have a great childhood but was supported in my special interests. I was a girl who liked climbing trees, electronics, space shuttles and wildlife. I fear if a child today I could be labelled as trans or gender fluid. I'm not. I'm female.
I've got a "man's job". I wear dresses or trousers, sometimes both. I sometimes wear make up but usually not. I like talking about my kids, diy, science. I've recently lost my breasts and long hair so I'm looking even less feminine. I'm still female.
I really don't get gender at all. Wear a dress if you like. Cut or grow your hair. Whatever. Use whatever pronouns make you happy. Live and let live.
BUT ... and this is the contentious bit as I understand it... I don't want to share female spaces with someone with a penis. Self ID seems in some cases to be analogous to cultural appropriation. I can't get my head round how that can be acceptable.

Yy clownstar I was thinking it would be a good piece of research!

Smiling - obviously I have no diagnosis and may not be autistic but since I was a child I have always dealt with anything that tempted me into ‘but you are just wrong’ arguments where I might go over the top by self soothing with thinking ‘you cannot have my thoughts, you can do or say anything but you can’t have me because I am in my head’

Office - I fit best into bi. I also need to know about personality. I have never been attracted to anybody based on looks. I wouldn’t like to say I would never be interested in someone trans but a trans person who believed in gender ideology I think a relationship would be too difficult.

I also have rule books in my head for dealing with social situations so a social situation that was looking like a conflict re rigid views where someone was going to be upset would trigger a series of ‘this is this situation so do this’ thing in my head.

Offred -agree, I might have a problem with the ideology too. Previously thought I was bi. Not totally sure where I fit but a) don't really care for the label, it's just more relevant in this conversation, and b) married, so non-issue. DH knows how I feel.

As an autistic person, I would also appreciate it if tangents about autism in general and benefits could be given their own thread.

So, I’m autistic and ADHD. I get a bit confused by all the definitions, but I’m a female woman and always have been.

I was quite a tomboy when I was a kid, but this was quite a normal thing in those days. I have been accused of having a male brain but the way I see it, I have my brain.

I can see if I was a kid these days I’d have been an easy target for people suggesting I should change to a boy. I just don’t see why I couldn’t be a tree climbing science loving girl. Still don’t.

As for female only spaces, I’ve experienced a genuine, lovely, m to f trans lady in one of mine. However it wasn’t a particularly sensitive space (hobby rather than safety place) and she was so sensitive to our needs and kept herself at the edge of things until we got to know her, and there were no issues around getting changed etc.

I worry that people like her will be the real sufferers from the ridiculous activists that want to demand access to women’s spaces. I feel it should be by invitation not demands that we choose who comes in our safe space.

I do think autistic women are particularly vulnerable in some ways to male aggression and emotional abuse. It’s harder for us to get social situations and this can leave us open to manipulation.

I think maybe some activists will abuse and manipulate us in the same way.

I mostly agree with this, I really don't get gender at all. Wear a dress if you like. Cut or grow your hair. Whatever. Use whatever pronouns make you happy. Live and let live.
BUT ... and this is the contentious bit as I understand it... I don't want to share female spaces with someone with a penis.

Does anyone else have real difficulty with being told they are ‘intolerant’ intended as a criticism when actually what you are trying to do is maintain boundaries that are actually important for your own peace of mind?

I think this could be an issue re the whole subject of this thread TBH but I get it a lot re relationships; not wanting friends who have very different views, having particular lines re romantic relationships...

I’ve been pressured loads of times to ‘be more flexible/tolerant’ due to not being supposedly making me some kind of bad person but when I give up my own rules re what kind of people I have close to me, what kind of things I will do, I find I am at sea without any rules to guide me and I get hurt or end up being controlled because I don’t know how to handle things.

I just take a deep breath and remind myself that we are the rational logical ones and they are the emotional ones yet we are the ones who aren’t “normal” and we should change to fit their irrational ideas.

I also find it can help to remind them that if they understand why wheelchair users don’t walk up flights of stairs they can understand that autistic people don’t do flexible.

In terms of race, sexuality, genuine transgender/ gender dysphasia etc I’m probably one of the most tolerant people. It’s illogical to treat people badly due to those things.

However I’m not convinced that all the trans activists demanding various things are genuine, or that their needs can be met without eroding mine.

I see it like religious freedom, I’m not religious but I hate hearing nasty islamophobic comments. It doesn’t mean I’m in support of the way Saudi Arabia treats women.

Other people’s equal rights are fine up to the point where they impinge on mine.

I also find it can help to remind them that if they understand why wheelchair users don’t walk up flights of stairs they can understand that autistic people don’t do flexible
this, yes

Other people’s equal rights are fine up to the point where they impinge on mine.
^and this!

Bold fail x 2

One of my big shifts lately has been from being completely non-verbal when I'm distressed to managing to vocalise a bit (have always had selective mutism) as I feel that being silent and frozen increases my vulnerability.
However, when I'm confronted by a very shocking situation, that vocalisation might be screaming. I'm capable of working in an actual job, and raising children, and going grocery shopping etc but in some contexts I worry that I would not be able to stop screaming and i also don't want to stop vocalising as from what I can tell this is progress for me.
It's linked in with being more able to vocalise in other difficult contexts.

Where I feel this links in with gender is...
Say I'm in an airport with my children, on the way to meet eg my dad in a different country. With planning, and an enthusiasm for transport that overrides anxiety, I have managed this in the past.
Although I have to say it was challenging last time with a debate about whether a ping pong paddle counts as a 'bat that is clearly a potential weapon'.

Say I have to be patted down and the person who is going to do this is clearly male.

I can imagine myself screaming and possibly ending up sedated and/or in a secure facility (see my mental health act 2003 comment above).

For me, personally, with my history of abuse and ptsd, staying away from male people is a good coping strategy. I find it extremely hard to enforce boundaries in a more nuanced way.

What should I do? Just not plan flights?

Super - that’s exactly why I feel stressed about all the ‘just get over it’ or ‘re-education’... Leaving me out of it entirely due to lack of diagnosis (though I relate to it as per previous post re boundaries and also freeze and lose the ability to think and speak) I don’t see how it is possible for DD to ‘just get over’ or be ‘re-educated’ out of the neurological difference that underlies this stuff.

As far as I can see she can, and is learning to manage this stuff, but it is mainly re her public self, I think it will be a lifetime of learning to manage it well but she will always have a different way of thinking and it’s not something she can ‘just get over’ or be re-educated out of.