Calorie counting

[CantankerousCamel]

I’ve just been reading about what calorie deficits women put themselves in to lose weight or to remain at a ‘goal weight’ they are preposterous.
Women regularly consuming half or just over the reccomended daily amount of food in order to fit what the world considers ‘correct’ Weight.

Thing is, many of them state they’re within BMI ranges and that they wouldn’t be if they ate recommended amounts of food.

Surely this is a clear way society prevents women from being free thinking, strong and sated.

I know when I was strong, athletic and healthy I was considered overweight and not just by a small amount.

Definitely - rejecting the ‘must eat clean and take up no space’ doctrine doesn’t mean going to the other extreme.

It means a focus on health. On good food, in general moderation, without guilt at the odd bit of cake because your lifestyle is healthy enough to absorb that. Neither extreme is good.

The fat acceptance bloggers have a point in that ones worth is not linked to ones size. And the abuse directed at larger people is awful. That message is positive. What’s not positive is to promote obesity, and there is a difference between promoting it and stopping people being abused for it.

Fat acceptance bloggers? Wow, never heard of those, you learn something new.
I do follow some health food bloggers on instagram, they're a mix of female and male. They can be a bit obsessive about eating clean, whole food, but I think it's a decent balance.
The men are usually pretty ripped, and the women well toned, but nothing too extreme.
They're definitely focussed more on health, but with some focus on looks.

My conversation is about whether women are given unsustainable weight goals in order to keep them placid and distracted. Surely if you’re living with less than needed calories, brain power and energy is affected

I'd say it's more about demanding that women be small and weak so that men can be comparatively big and strong, and who cares how much damage it does to the women? It's feeding a male power fantasy. That's why female actors have to be so tiny, to make the male actors look big in comparison.

In my experience, strong women generally weigh a lot more than men of the same height. Reason being that women have to carry extra bodyfat because of the way our bodies work. If a man and a woman of the same height and basic build are training towards the same goal (a certain bench press, for example) you should expect the woman to weigh more.

If you are trying to stay small you will not be able to achieve your body's maximum strength. Look at all the World Strongest Men/Women. You will notice not one of them is lean. None. If you want to be as strong as possible you need fat to fuel it too.

I'm not even sure how they came up with the idea that women should weigh less than men in general, or that (in the BMI) women should weigh the same as a man of the same height. What was that based on?

It’s also I think down to this thing that women should not take up space.

They should not take up space at work - I’ve been called aggressive for taking a stance that a Male co worker would have been told was proactive. When I pointed this out I got embarrassed shuffling in return. My role at work is to be efficient. I am efficient and I’m a good people manager. I am NEVER aggressive. I am never rude, abusive etc. But I will stand my corner and I will have my direct reports backs and I will not be ridden roughshod over. I am endlessly calm, I’ve never even raised my voice at work and I’ve defused and dealt with very stressful situations. Those attributes are seen as aggressive in a woman. Women must be subservient at work. We must not occupy space

It’s the same with the body. Look at the bloody fuss over the Wonder Woman movie. People criticising her thighs ffs. It’s like it’s a revolutionary act to be strong rather than take up no space

The ideal of being waffer thin and quiet and passive is all about denying women a presence. A space. A physical space or a space in the heirarchy. If you can sell them a shirload of crap as well all the better.

Look at all the World Strongest Men/Women. You will notice not one of them is lean. None.

That used to be the case, but not any more.
Plenty of them are lean, the Polish guy Mariusz was maybe the first one.
But it's true that to build muscle you need a calorie surplus, and to lose fat you need a calorie deficit, and you can't do both at once.

Calorie counting definitely led me down a route of disorded eating to an extremely low bmi. I never went to my gp at my lowest weight but when I sought help with completing my recovery at a bmi of 17 I was told I was probably fine. That was a few years ago and I'm still underweight. I have long term vitamin and mineral deficiencies etc.

I know this isn't a path everyone will take but given that restrictive eating disorders affect women far far more than men, I think its fair to suggest the culture of calorie counting does have negative affects for mostly women.

While I’m currently rather spherical due to an advanced state of pregnancy, in my yoof I was fit as a flea. I was tiny (I’m short) but I wasn’t thin. I’m just a small build and I was very strong for my size. BMI never below 23 even though I was a tiny size eight. Always had a sight tummy, always had thighs of steel

Disordered eating is extremely prevalent- I see the current clean eating thing as part of it as well if I’m honest. No food is ‘clean’ or ‘dirty’ and a lot of the current food culture lends itself to weight loss via restriction of entire food groups. Now of course if you genuinely have an allergy or an intolerance that’s one thing, but otherwise cutting whole groups out of your diet is rarely positive.

It’s restriction to keep women in line (and I suppose men too, if it’s crossing over) - worry about eating this, or that, or your weight, or your clothes no don’t look up and see the gross inequality in society!

bloodmagic
Thank you for your succinct post.

I suppose I began thinking about this because I’ve been trying to lose weight which I find very hard. I have a sweet tooth (to say the least) and I’m holding on to a lot of extra baby weight. I Refuse to weigh myself, I’m basing my success on how I feel.

I crossfit 3/4 times a week minimum, walk around 3 miles a day and do the general child sorting/house keeping bits also.

Whilst I have been dieting I’ve noticed

• my energy levels are completely depleted
• my memory is worse
• my mood is worse.

It just got me thinking, plus women discussing how little they eat, 1000 calories a day to maintain the body they feel they need to have.

Not to mention that for a proportion of those dieters it will likely predispose them to gain weight long term. So they can waste more time in the satisfying pursuit of weight loss.

I think this is an area where women could do with a little less pressure, and men a little more.

All that considered, women who are living in tiny amounts of calories 800-1200 a day, are not healthy. This should not be considered normal

I’m a size 16 only because I have periods of living on 800 cals a day. It’s a scientific approach that has been shown to reverse diabetes. I eat whole, largely unprocessed foods and am never hungry.

But sure. Let’s all scoff 2000 per day for the hell of it.

Titty

We should be encouraging more exercise rather than increasingly small amount of food to ‘fuel’ a sedentary lifestyle

To be fair, we pretty much all over consume in the west, especially taking into account our sedentary lifestyles. I think we have lost sight of portion control - my grandparents portions were teeny compared to modern day portion sizes. Women eating moderately and staying a healthy weight is actually a good thing that will greatly benefit their long term health. Fat is a feminist issue in that it is really, really bad for you and if you love women you wouldn't wish obesity related heath outcomes on them for the sake of a larger piece of pie.

Men do this as well. It now doesn't just affect women. Men are also under huge pressure to have a good body, no hair or look a certain way.
How many women tease about a man having a hairy back etc.

Not many? I went out with a bloke with a hairy back for a while, I don't mind body hair on a man, assuming I like the man, obviously!

And I've seen men "tease" each other far more for the body / looks that women teasing TBH.

Anyway that's only anecdotal :) and it's not a race to the bottom. Anyone who thinks the pressure is anything like the same is not correct though.

Plus I mean I look around my office and I don't think that lots of the men are feelign huge pressure to look good :D

I like food and drink so cycle a lot. (I also like cycling). If I'm not doing exercise (usually about 100km a week) I have to cut down my intake significantly. I don't feel calorie deprived and ill then though as I'm still taking in the calories I need I just need less.
It's mainly when you are losing weight you feel rubbish.
Agree not being obese is an issue for men and women. I prefer slim men.
I've never counted calories but do easily put on weight if I don't keep an eye on my weight. I've never got in to the comfort eating thing. It's more the alcohol on an evening I need to watch.

We should be encouraging more exercise rather than increasingly small amount of food to ‘fuel’ a sedentary lifestyle

I believe there’s evidence suggesting that diet is more important than exercise, but of course, when everything’s in balance, moderation is key.

For me personally 1200 is enough (I'm 5ft and 8st 5lb BMI approx 21). But if I was 5'8 it would be a very different story. I think calorie intake recommendations are daft for that reason alone.

Yes diet is more important than exercise, which is why eating smaller and smaller amounts is really not good and tends to make people unhappy

Being served smaller portions than men is a common bugbear on MN, but I don't get it because women need fewer calories than men.

Long rambly post, apologies

You are correct in that BMI doesn't account for athletic body types with high amounts of muscle mass leading to fit people being classed as overweight. However it is a guide at the end of the day.

I'm short with lots of muscle from my sporting days but I am carrying excess fat. I'm temporarily eating 1200 cal a day and exercising to get rid of the fat. I feel perfectly sated, my mood is fine and I have the energy to exercise.

I think there's a lot of misconceptions about what 1200 calories of food (and 2000 calories) actually looks like-look at these examples from MFP, blog.myfitnesspal.com/2000-calories-looks-like-infographic/

blog.myfitnesspal.com/1200-calories-looks-like-infographic/ . It can be a lot of food if you eat lots of fruit and veg with lean protein and things like porridge for breakfast, and I still manage to have treats. Furthermore it's a lot easier to eat less calories than to burn off the required amount for a deficit through exercise.

We're all different and the 2000 calorie recommended daily amount doesn't take into account our differences such as height, build, activity level etc. My maintenance calories will probably be around 1600 calories and I'm short and athletic. Who are we to dictate what another woman's maintenance is (or what you think it should be) if they feel good, are healthy and aren't experiencing ill effects.

I understand that calorie counting can lead to obsessiveness etc. but a lot of people, including me, find it useful to see what they're eating and control their portions.

Navigator i reckon Susie Orbach might be really impressed with the mental gymnastics you use to describe her book.

In fairness, Susie Orbach was writing 30 years ago & could not have predicted the explosion in cheap fast food, car ownership & sedentary lifestyles. Feminist thinking has to move with the times and I am sure Susie O would be the first to agree with that.

deydododatdodontdeydo

Because if you are going out for a meal and paying the same it is galling to be given less food on the basis of averages.

The person preparing the dishes has no way of knowing if
the woman does a lot of exercise
has eaten little all day because going out for slap up meal in the evening
the man is on a diet (many are)
the woman is pregnant
and so on and so on

If I pay my money the same as a man and order steak and chips then I want the standard steak and chips serving!

My DH is about twice my size but he is perpetually on a diet. I am not. If we go out and order eg steak and chips and a salad, coke and a diet coke, 9 times out of 10 they put it down the wrong way round!

In fact my DH and DFIL are both always struggling with diets - this is not uncommon - and maybe dialling back men's portions a bit would help them too.

There are far more sedentary jobs around these days and more men than women are overweight. (Despite the greater focus on women being overweight in the press).