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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

KLAXON!! *AIBU* has Connecticut Sport BOYS V GIRLS thread!

13 replies

SuitedandBooted · 09/06/2018 08:56

So pop over there, keep it moving, and spread the word!

The GRA supporters seem a little shy about it ATM - it's rather hard to defend outright cheating, isn't it?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3271449-In-Connecticut-two-teenage-boys-who-identify-as-girls-have-come-1st-and-2nd-in-the-girls-100m-sprint

OP posts:
SuitedandBooted · 09/06/2018 08:56

BUMP

OP posts:
AncientLights · 09/06/2018 09:13

Bump

SuitedandBooted · 09/06/2018 09:20

Does anyone have the Allsorts advice quote , along the lines of;

"If girls don't like it they can find another sport"

I know I have seen it somewhere.

OP posts:
SwearyG · 09/06/2018 09:41

Here you go.

KLAXON!! *AIBU* has Connecticut Sport BOYS V GIRLS thread!
SuitedandBooted · 09/06/2018 10:17

Thanks Sweary - could you past that on AIBU please, I am supposed to be going to DD's school fete!

OP posts:
Ineedacupofteadesperately · 09/06/2018 10:22

Oh god the irony the responsibility lies with the person with the problem to deal with that problem

Exactly. We women and girls say no to biologically male people (xy) in our spaces. It is not our problem. Deal with your own problem, get your own space.

nauticant · 09/06/2018 12:56

I see the AIBU thread has picked up a disruptive and prolific poster, as is normally the case. (There must be a taxonomy of these somewhere.) In this case they're identifying with "obtuse". You know the one, whenever they're asked something that TRA ideology struggles with, claiming they can't answer basic questions because they're not an expert/haven't read up on this stuff, while later on telling people how informative Judith Butler's work is*.

  • Judith Butler’s Gender Trouble ... speaks to me as a cis woman.
nauticant · 09/06/2018 21:57

In further thread news, a far more effective disruptive poster arrived on the AIBU thread. Specialist skills: derailing and draining energy. They're actually very effective at grinding the thread to a halt.

20pencepiece · 10/06/2018 08:46

I've hidden the AIBU thread because it's gone a bit mad. I wish posters would just ignore an obvious derailer instead of engaging with them.

53rdWay · 10/06/2018 09:21

Always impressed by the number of people who’ve read Gender Trouble cover to cover and found it a clear summary of a particular argument worth recommending to others, given how Judith Butler writes.

And since I’m sure this will get pounced on by lurkers concluding “haHA! Those silly mummies on MN don’t think anyone’s smart enough to read Judith Butler!” - no, I’m sure you’re smart enough to read Judith Butler. I’m sure you’re also smart enough to have clocked after Gender Trouble if you hadn’t before that Butler writes in a purposefully dense and convoluted style even for a theorist, to the point where she’s rather famous in academia for it.

Wherever you stand on the “this means she’s a genius” vs “this means she’s a bad writer” take on Butler’s style, it is pretty weird if you have read Butler to suggest people in discussions about girls’ sports on a parenting discussion board just go and read Butler because that’ll clear it up for them. It won’t clear it up for anybody. It might confuse a few people into thinking they understand less than they do and should just nod along, though.

Philosopher Martha Nussbaum wrote a great piece on Butler’s style a few years ago: faculty.georgetown.edu/irvinem/theory/Nussbaum-Butler-Critique-NR-2-99.pdf Think this bit is relevant:

To whom, then, is Butler speaking? It would seem that she is addressing a group of young feminist theorists in the academy who are neither students of philosophy, caring about what Althusser and Freud and Kripke really said, nor outsiders, needing to be informed about the nature of their projects and persuaded of their worth. This implied audience is imagined as remarkably docile. Subservient to the oracular voice of Butler's text, and dazzled by its patina of high-concept abstractness, the imagined reader poses few questions, requests no arguments and no clear definitions of terms.

SuitedandBooted · 10/06/2018 12:02

20pencepiece

The AIBU mirror thread is back on track now - now discussing other male-born athletes taking over women's sport.

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boatyardblues · 10/06/2018 12:46

Which page does it get sensible on? I may skip the bunfight for my own sanity.

nauticant · 10/06/2018 14:20

You have to get pretty close to the end to see things get back on track.

However, the positive for me is that cheating in sport is so clearly wrong, in a way that anyone with common sense can immediately understand both at an intellectually level and, more importantly, at a gut level, so that when the allies arrive to explain that it's actually fine, they are exposed as peddling crazy stuff. It just doesn't make sense to everyday people.

Let's hope it will help some people make the double breakthrough: this is mad, and the justifications for it are either mad or dishonest.

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