We see you, left-wing men

[53rdWay]

I’m pretty far to the left, politically. And will be staying that way no matter what men on the left do, because my political philosophy isn’t dependent on them.

I know there’s a looooong history of feminists getting fed up with the sexism of left-wing blokes and walking out to form their own movement, all the way back to the 19th century. But for a good few years there I was kidding myself that it’s different these days. These men call themselves feminists, they certainly aren’t old-fashioned sexists any more, blah blah blah.

(I did start questioning things around the Julian Assange rape accusations when so many ‘feminist’ men were spitting foam-flecked rage about how it was all so obviously lies, but even this didn’t wake me up.)

So I’d like to thank gender identity ideology, and all those left-wing men who are either mysteriously silent or actively putting the boot into feminists. This ideology made me see that not only are these men not on our side any more, but they never really were in the first place. They don’t think we’re oppressed as a class at all. It’s been a bit shit to realise this but I’m glad I finally did.

Oh, and I am also tired of left-wing men holding up the sexism of the right as a threat that should make us grateful for our brocialist overlords.

How have Left wing men given us more scraps than Right wing? Isn't this perception rather than reality.

I think (hope?) that WEP are coming round - they at least favour an abolitionist model for prostitution. Wish they could sort out what they think ‘woman’ means though.

Infinite, I’d say e.g. New Labour: which introduced AWS (which the party have cocked up since but it did get a lot of women in as MPs), doubled maternity pay, increased the number of nursery places, brought in the Equality Act, increased support for DV services, brought in a lot of policies aimed at reducing the burden of poverty under capitalism which disproportionately falls on women (better rights for p/t workers, minimum wage, Sure Start centres). That wasn’t obviously just the men in the party but plenty of them did work for these things too.

What I take objection to is being told, in effect, “this therefore proves we are not sexist and excuses the left from any criticism about how women are treated in the movement.”

It's not new. The early Labour Party didn't support the battle for votes for women because they thought it was a distraction from equal votes for men.

I’d been wondering whether to start a thread about the Labour movement and women’s work.

Cf. Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell over Redcar Steelworks vs what have they had to say about Mothercare closing? No ‘top level pressure’ there. They just like men to have man work.

And, obviously metal bashing metal should be paid more than folding clothes and being friendly. Obviously!

What I take objection to is being told, in effect, “this therefore proves we are not sexist and excuses the left from any criticism about how women are treated in the movement.”

I see it as "If you criticise us, you are with the enemy and therefore evil. STFU and fall into line."

If you want to get really angry take a look at this thread and the rest of this 'intersectional' 'feminist' 'socialist' man's twitter twitter.com/antiracist_ally/status/1004726048792117248?s=21

I think left wing men identify with being right.

They also identity as our representation. Which is why they get so bloody abusive when we say fuck off, we can represent ourselves thanks, and we disagree with you.

I also find this brand of misogyny gets worse the higher up the class/education level you go.

I’m from a big left-wing Labour family. I’ve recently had arguments with a few family members who have totally dismissed women’s concerns with Labour. I feel like there’s an assumption that women should just vote Labour because women are oppressed and Labour are the party for oppressed people. But with absolutely no effort to hear women’s voices, or address our worries, or tweak their policies to - you know - help us in any way.

It really, really pisses me off. And more so in that I can’t even argue my case because they just will not listen. Grrrr.

I am dealing with one right now, about this. The power they have is immense. Men like this massively populate the civil service in areas that matter to us, equality, diversity, education, health and social care, whatever the colour of government. They also dominate at the BBC and in the third sector, as someone already mentioned.

I can never forget though that ALL men did this to us. They all shrugged and looked away.

Men like this massively populate the civil service in areas that matter to us, equality, diversity, education, health and social care, whatever the colour of government. They also dominate at the BBC and in the third sector, as someone already mentioned.

EXACTLY.

Funnily enough I was just reading this Andrea Dwokin article about just such a topic
Woman-hating Right and Left
www.mediafire.com/file/gug66adc79rf7fs/Woman-Hating+Right+and+Left+-+Dworkin.pdf

Lefty men are also very reluctant to acknowledge misogyny and violence towards women which is endemic in certain non western countries / cultures. They’ll accept them rather than being seen as racist. If you point them out, then you are under suspicion of being racist, which to them is just about the worst imputation, maybe falling short of being called a pedophile.

Feminism is neither left wing nor right wing politics. It is 'woman wing'. As Dworkin aptly explained the difference - RW dudes regard women as private property, LW dudes regard women as public property. If you are a woman in that mix, heads they win, tails you lose.

I will tolerate male allies, as long as they toe the line. But most of them fail, and some are even traitorous (not naming 'Stolenberg', LOL). Basically, I have seen way too many male allies fuck up big time (and particularly on the T issue), so I really don't trust any to go the distance.

As an aside, 53rd, seriously, you didn't see the penis directive in Assange? OMG, so frickin obvious. And the lefty dudes of course, falling all over him as a 'man so falsely accused by vindictive women™'.

That'd be a NO.

The reason for sex-segregated spaces is that there are times when the concavity or convexity[1] of your genitalia matter.

On another thread, I describe a penis as a rape weapon and a vagina as an unpatchable security vulnerability. I stand by those descriptions.

[1] Not in the economics sense.

you didn't see the penis directive in Assange?

I thought it was a minority view, because most lefty men would not be that blatantly misogynistic. Hollow laughter.

In fairness, there are good economic and national security reasons why anyone would be justifiably more concerned about the loss of manufacturing and primary resource[1] production capacity than about the loss of a retailer. The skills, premises, and equipment needed for primary resource production and manufacturing are very specialised, once they are gone they cannot be easily reinstated, and if we find ourselves unable to import steel and coal (e.g. WW3 starts or there is a breakdown in international relations between the UK and the supplying country), we are utterly screwed.

The question I want to ask is: how come women were excluded (by law in the case of mining) from these critical industries. They happily let us into the shipyards and onto the farms during WW2.

[1] e.g. coal, iron ore, lumber, basically anything in its raw state that you can turn into something else.

@ElenOfTheWays - exactly.

Some fascinating reading on this site:

www.socfem.net/

"But rather than define and defend their own rights, as gays and lesbians did, as people of colour have had to do, the trans movement makes an extraordinary and unprecedented move in the history of human rights: they want to claim not the universal rights that all people should have access to but the rights of another group (women) by claiming and appropriating their identities."

They LOVE prostitution. It's striking how the comments section are aflame with approval every time the Guardian publishes another "empowering sex work/ happy hooker" article. Or when Neville Southall, cuddly folk hero "Big Nev" started mouthing off on Twitter about it he got so much praise. For only listening to one side of the debate and ignoring the feminists and prostitution survivors who told him of the ugliness and the exploitation that's rife. To hear the way his fans lapped up his "letting working girls speak for themselves" crap, you'd think he was Jesus saving Mary Magdalene or something, it was nauseating

I've had the privilege of hearing Fiona Broadfoot speak recently. Her story and her arguments in favour of the Nordic model are powerful, moving and eloquent.

It's the prostitution thing that gets me the most. Nearly all of these men support the woman's "choice" to use her sexuality any way she wants.

This fails to acknowledge the inherent power imbalance that is the cornerstone of our sexist environment.

Justifying your right to buy another person cannot be called feminism - can it?