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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Definitions (gender)

7 replies

Bloodmagic · 08/06/2018 01:28

It seems some of us might soon be in a position to actually discuss the existing and proposed laws on gender and gender recognition. If so I think we need some clear definitions and I haven't seen any before. Even dictionary definitions are a bit circular.

The existing laws (in the UK and in Aus - where I am) are a mess. Starting with the fact that gender recognition laws allow you to legally change your sex to the one one that 'matches' your 'gender' without ever clearly defining what a gender is or how it can match or not match a sex, or why that should be recorded if it does.

The most commonly used definition is that gender is how you feel about yourself as a man or a woman. By that definition, 'feminist' is a gender (the feelings that your place in society is unfairly determined by being a woman) and so could be 'arrogance' (an exaggerated sense of one's abilities as a man or woman).

In Australian legislation on the matter it uses the following definition:

"Gender is part of a person’s personal and social identity. It refers to the way a person feels,
presents and is recognised within the community. A person’s gender may be reflected in
outward social markers, including their name, outward appearance, mannerisms and dress."

Which part of a person's personal identity? The intellect? Their favorite foods? Which part of their social identity - their wealth/class? If i feel 'wise' and present and am recognized as 'wise' in my community, that it a gender by this definition. Being poor can be a gender if it is reflected in name, appearance, mannerisms, and dress.

It goes on to say "Although sex and gender are conceptually distinct, these terms are commonly used interchangeably, including in legislation. A person’s sex and gender may not necessarily be the same. Some people may identify as a different gender to their birth sex and some people may identify as neither exclusively male nor female."
without ever specifying WHY a persons gender and sex ever would be the same or even use the same categories, since sex was never used in the definition of gender, and it was explicitly noted as a distinct characteristic. It is never noted what the terms 'male' and 'female' mean in the context of gender (which from the previous definition can equally refer to political beliefs or social class).

Obviously this is getting us nowhere.

I have genuinely tried for a while now to come up with a definition that is accurate and that TRAs would be happy with (because if they're not it won't be accepted or useful) and it's hard. So here are the most accurate and inoffensive definitions I can come up with, please correct or add to them, especially if you are transgender or consider yourself a supporter of transrights.

Sex - the two categories (male and female) into which humans are divided on the basis of their potential reproductive function.
Male - the sex which produces sperm. In an individual this sex is defined by the presence of an SRY gene which controls differentiation of the gonads into testes.
Female - the sex which produces ovum. In an individual this sex is defined by the lack of an SRY gene resulting in differentiation of gonads into ovaries.
Intersex - A person with sex chromosomes other than XX or XY, or with a disorder affecting their sexual development.
Sexual characteristics - the physiological phenotype typical of males or females, which may be altered by disease, accident, surgery or artificial hormones.

Genderism - The belief that the personality or soul of an individual is a sexed characteristic, i.e. that it is noticeably and inherently different in males and females to such a degree that it can be subjectively experienced and identified.
Genderist - A person who holds a belief in Genderism.
Gender critical - a belief that the personality or soul is not a sexed characteristic, i.e. that feelings, capabilities, and desires are roughly evenly distributed among males and females, or a person who holds this belief.
Gender Identity - A belief in the specific sex of one's personality or soul - which may be male, female, both, neither, partially one or the other, or changing frequently. A person must be genderist in order to have a gender identity.
Transgender - a person with a gender identity not the same as their sex
Cisgender - a person with a gender identity the same as their sex
Gender expression - any element of behavior of appearance which has typically been associated with one sex or the other.

Gender is a confusing and useless term which generally serves as a placeholder for one of the other definitions so I omit it totally. People who want to use gender should define it specifically in the context it will be used. People who casually use gender should be pressed on whether they are referring to gender identity, expression, or sex.

So sexual characteristics can be changed, but sex can't. 'Handmaidens' are cisgender genderists, but other people (non trans) can not be cisgender unless they have a genderist belief.

This is as close as I can get to a plain, accurate description of the ways these words are used that isn't circular. Once we agree on these, we can then discuss whether gender identity is a characteristic worth recording, whether it should be used instead of sex or along with sex, and whether genderism is consistent with progressive attitudes and a goal of sex equality. If we can't agree on what words mean we can't discuss anything.

I don't expect these definitions to be accepted though, because once you define the terms and realize that any use of 'gender (in its current form) rests on the belief in a sexed soul or sexed personality, most people will tend to reject it. Both because it's sexist and because it is clearly a faith-based position. I think that is why people have deliberately used such foggy definitions in the past. However, having a definition like this sets a standard and requires anyone who disagrees with it to provide a better definition.

OP posts:
GibbertyFlibbert · 08/06/2018 02:28

See en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/P_v_S_and_Cornwall_County_Council

Bowlofbabelfish · 08/06/2018 07:18

Ah. Trying to come up with a definition that’s accurate is great but where you’re going wrong is finding one the TRAs are happy with too. They won’t ever be happy until they’ve tantrummed and got everything they want.

So just stick to the facts.

Personally I dont think gender can be codified. It certainly shouldn’t be codified and used interchangeably with sex. That would be my angle.

Sex is set, immutable, and either Male or female. Gender is the set of expectations of looks and behaviour that society hangs upon each sex. It’s effectively a stereotype of how each sex should ‘be’ within society.

What you need to put across is that regardless of how anyone feels about gender, SEX is a biological reality and that in some situations, sex matters, this conflating sex and gender is dangerous.

PerkingFaintly · 08/06/2018 08:04

I've notice two diametrically opposed definitions of the phrase "gender critical" in use on MN.

They are roughly:

  1. the belief that gender is a set of external social expectations and behaviours which are applied to people according to their biological sex; the set is different in different places and different eras, and is often used to maintain power structures which benefit men;

  2. the belief that gender is a biologically innate set of behaviours determined by biological sex, and neither sex nor gender can be changed.

In definition (1), the word "critical" means critical of the concept in (2).

In definition (2), I don't know what the word "critical" is doing. It looks to me like people who hold belief (2) have seen the phrase "gender critical" in a specific context, mistaken it to mean "anti-trans", and seized the phrase for their own meaning. (At least that's what I get from reading them, as I see no evidence of them using the phrase outside trans issues, unlike people using definition (1)).

Sorry, that's probably not helpful. But it's been concerning me to watch discussions in which both parties label themselves "gender critical" without apparently realising they are in direct conflict. It particularly matters when someone is saying "gather to my gender critical flag, and support me as I try to achieve our gender critical aims" – when their aims are actually inimical to half the people they are trying to muster.

bd67th · 08/06/2018 08:24

Not sure how @GibbertyFlibbert's link adds clarity to the definition of "gender". The court decision is correct btw: if a male's decision to alter his body to resemble that of a female doesn't stop him from doing his job, he should not be fired.

Bloodmagic · 10/06/2018 04:11

PerkingFaintly

Have you seen many people on MN saying that 'gender critical' refers to "the belief that gender is a biologically innate set of behaviours determined by biological sex, and neither sex nor gender can be changed."? Because that seems a lot more like classic conservativism to me. I.e. women wear dresses because of their ladybrains.

In this context, gender critical means critical of the notion of an internal 'gender identity' - defined as the supposed sexed characteristics of personality. i.e. gender critical people don't think you can have a 'ladybrain' regardless of your sex.

I haven't seen anyone use it the other way.

@Bowlofbabelfish

Yeh I know they won't be happy, but theyr own definitions are fault and contradictory, which is why there needs to be an alternative clear and accurate definition, and like i said even the dictionary definition is actually circular and goes nowhere.

I do think you need to define gender terms, just like to need to define religion. It's a belief that people honestly hold and are trying to cram down everyone else's throats, you need to define it so you can draw clear boundaries on it.

OP posts:
PerkingFaintly · 10/06/2018 10:06

I don't know about numbers, but yes, I've absolutely seen people on MN pushing definition (2). I'm not sure whether to link publicly to other threads, but I can send you links.

That's why I've raised this.

I completely agree with you that "that seems a lot more like classic conservativism to me. I.e. women wear dresses because of their ladybrains."

But you know, some people are classic conservatives. It's allowed. Not my cup of tea and I'm gender critical under def (1), but not everyone is.

What's bothering me is seeing people talking at cross-purposes, both claiming they're being "gender critical".

So I think it's worth clarifying what the other person in any conversation mentioning "gender critical" actually means. Then you can move on with the conversation.

Elletorro · 10/06/2018 10:13

I think that this thought experiment (link below)is very useful. I think that cis for example means incredibly different things to different people. For some it’s about identifying with oppression for others it denotes that the individual doesn’t have the disorder of gender dysphoria.

I think sometimes we are arguing at cross purposes

onlyagame.typepad.com/only_a_game/2006/08/this_is_not_a_t.html

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