Transgender Man Jailed for Two Years

[GeordieTerf]

I realize that this isn't feminism, but I think this question has come up a lot on here in the past few years, and it looks like we may finally get an answer.

(Daily Fail link)

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5817093/Transgender-man-blames-attack-having-testosterone-jailed.html

"Jesse Hawthorne, 26, attacked his victim after turning up drunk at his ex's house
He was unhappy that ex Emma Dickinson was in a relationship with Ashley Cook
Defence barrister blamed an 'inappropriate amount of testosterone' for violence
Hawthorne, of Caerphilly, south Wales, was jailed for two years and five months"

The article doesnt say whether Jesse will go to a male or female prison though...

There is a long-term pattern of punishing transmen much more harshly than transwomen.

The article says he was in a female prison during the trial so ...
I don't really believe his excuse.

The TIM that attacked a woman in speakers corner got a much easier time in court.

I'd lay money I have more testosterone in my system than she does, supplements or not, and I don't expect I'd have "testosterone" taken into account if I assaulted someone. (Nor would I want it taken into account).

I imagine it could surprise you if you weren't used to it, but it doesn't make you throw a brick at someone's head - that's on you. If it were "an inappropriate amount" I doubt the doctor would be prescribing it.

She'll go to a women's prison. She'd only go to a man's prison if she really kicked up a legal fuss and tried to force it and even then the authorities would try very hard to stop it. For her own safety.

(Incoming questions why they don't try to stop a man going to a woman's prison for the women's own safety. I don't know, but they should).

She will go to a female prison. She should go to a female prison, it would be very dangerous for her to go to a male one. I do wonder though, what the decision would be if she did fight to go into the male prison. Surely, given they shift men into womens prisons, they should do it the other way too. By their logic, of course, I disagree with it entirely.

Yeah no transman EVER fights for entry into a male prison. Funny that isn't it?

It would be an interesting test case though, especially if she has a GRC. Because basically, if they refuse her (which surely they will..), they are acknowledging what everyone else knows, that males are a danger to females..which is pretty much why prisons are segregated by sex in the first place. And if they acknowledge this, then surely they have to reverse other barmy decisions to send males into female prisons?

This is interesting. I tend to think the defence barrister is grasping at straws (after all, if testosterone was an excuse, every violent male tried in court could use it to try to get off) but it's noteworthy that they think it's even worth attempting.

Like DJLippy, I can't see Jesse demanding to go to a male prison. Nobody wants to go to a male prison, do they? They're horrible places. You also don't see transmen clamouring to use male toilets or changing rooms. Most, I imagine, are acutely aware of their own vulnerability.

I can imagine excess testosterone could have something to do with it, though its obviously not an excuse. The female body is just not made to deal with large amounts of it and I think it could potentially change your character. If you think of how pregnancy hormones make you (not sure if this is everyone or just me though) and women are supposed to have those! I would have ridiculous mood swings, laughing randomly, crying randomly , I felt amazing in myself at one stage but then I would go right to being really depressed. So yeah, I can imagine large amounts of testosterone in a female body could cause the person to be more violent. Has there not been studies on this? That showed that post transition transmen were more violent? I am sure I have seen that linked on here before.

When men take steroids too, there seem to be a few cases of 'roid rage'. Though I guess that could be just an excuse too..

"So yeah, I can imagine large amounts of testosterone in a female body could cause the person to be more violent. Has there not been studies on this? That showed that post transition transmen were more violent? I am sure I have seen that linked on here before."

I've never seen any but there are innumerable first-hand accounts by women of the effect of testosterone on how they feel. Not merely FtM trans people, but athletes and body builders. I don't think anybody would try to argue it doesn't make women more aggressive. I'd question whether it makes anyone more aggressive than men. I touched on this in my own post above. I don't think there's any evidence that you can be "testosterone-naive" in the same way you can be caffeine-naive or alcohol-naive. You don't build up a tolerance to it - that would be biologically counter-productive as it's produce by our own bodies. I think you could credibly argue that a woman growing up as a woman is less adept at handling increased aggression socially. In general. Men have all sorts of social ways of handling aggression and facing off that I typically don't see from women. She might be lacking those. But I wouldn't consider that relevant to whether or not she actually attacked someone unprovoked as in this case.

Also, testosterone does make you more aggressive but it doesn't make you a thug. The difference between a man who doesn't go around beating people up and one who does isn't testosterone levels. This is definitely being used by her as an excuse.

When men take steroids too, there seem to be a few cases of 'roid rage'. Though I guess that could be just an excuse too..

Meant to add, Anabolic Steroids are testosterone analogues (pretty much). It's effectively the same thing. Though some other drugs like Human Growth Hormone get mistakenly called steroids sometimes.

Defence barrister was affectively saying men are more prone to commit violent crimes due to higher testosterone levels. Therefore taken to its logical conclusion men are inherently dangerous as proven by science. So does that mean men should always be the subject of a curfew so that they don’t go out at night and mix toxic alcohol levels with that testosterone. Should they always have a chaperone with them so they can stop them instantly when about to commit a crime. I don’t agree with this but it’s exactly what some people would want to happen to women if they had a bio trait that made them more prone to commit crimes

Defence barrister was affectively saying men are more prone to commit violent crimes due to higher testosterone levels. Therefore taken to its logical conclusion

trans women are less prone to commit violent crimes with lower to near zero testosterone levels.

QED.

It is defense barrister's jobs to argue for any potential mitigating factors that could be applied to their clients, there is no requirement for their arguments to be rigorously evidence based, but they are more likely to be accepted if they are considered credible by the jury. So just because a particular case is made in court, even if it is accepted it doesn't mean that what the barrister says is factually true, it just needs to introduce reasonable doubt.

Ihuntmonsters - I guess I was under the foolish impression of thinking only evidence based arguments were allowed in a court of law and not illogical emotional arguments as we feminists are frequently told after rape trials.

It would be a very good idea if only evidence based arguments were allowed or at least if it was clear when arguments were about opinion and when they were about fact. I believe that there has been a move to introduce more expert witnesses at rape trials because so many myths are espoused (like the horrific Irish trial recently) but I'm not sure if it's made any difference to the outcome.

Not sure that I agree there - if barristers don't have to state factual truth then what are they doing? Lying? Would a barrister not get into serious trouble for that? Is there evidence for a link between testosterone and crime? I kind of know what you mean though. But if it's credible one way it should be credible the other in this case....? Ah I"m too tired now.

I don't think having a drug you put into your body should be any kind of excuse for violence regardless of what that drug is.