A supportive trans parent

[bethmins]

Theres plenty of mention on here about people such as Lily Maynard who's child was never diagnosed as having gender dysphoria 'detransitioned' so in the interests of balance and discussion, here is an alternative view..

"I understand the scepticism around how biology can be misused, but surely that does not mean this should be rejected outright?

Whilst supporters of trans rights shy away from biology and science, it allows transphobic groups to present themselves as champions of science and rationality. Claims that couldn’t be farther from the truth."

growinguptransgender.wordpress.com/2018/06/04/biological-underpinning-to-gender-identity/

^It's seems the term in itself 'trans woman' is for some reason impossible to understand on these boards, as is 'gender identity'.
These terms are clearly understood in the modern world^

They are, but not in the same way you understand them I think. People outside of the trans or GC bubble see Transwomen as slightly sad men, who dress up in women's clothes. They have no idea what gender identity means, but think it probably means what sex you are (sex in the normal mammalian biology sense). They are bemused by folk with blue hair and unusual pronouns and think it's just an odd fashion that comes and goes.

OK, I just read the blog. I think it is a well written defense of the use of science to understand transgenderism. The negative part for me, as someone who is gender critical, is the dismission of all those, including medical professionals urging caution, who disagree with any of the authors conclusions as "transphobic".

There is good evidence that gender dysphoria can be innate, but this cannot be interpreted as gender itself being innate. Personally, I don't feel as though I have a gender, and I know a lot of others feel the same way. What's the evidence for gender identity being innate in people without dysphoria?

Also, if we accept that gender dysphoria is innate, it follows that some children will have gender dysphoria, so trans children will exist (this is essentially the blog writers argument). Nevertheless, there is also good evidence that most children 'grow out' of their dysphoria. Surely as a parent you will hope that your child will be among those who don't go on to take puberty blockers, hormones, have surgery and spend their whole lives medicalised?

Since we currently have no idea which children will desist and which children will have the most severe dysphoria, guidance to be supportive but not affirmative makes much more sense to me.

Amazing isn't it? Day after day, thread after thread, criticising trans people and single positive account.... and suddenly no one wants to discuss it

Nah. Just can't be arsed with goady fuckers and I'm beginning to think that there are more of these than genuine OPs right now.

'dissmission' should be 'dismissal'

flowers - what do you understand by gender?
Is it other than the cultural stereotypes that I suggest?

Because if it is just the rules that society makes up, then 'gender dysphoria" literally translates to 'unhappy with society's rules' and that cannot be innate either. And applies to a hell of a lot of people, including me.

Meanwhile, if gender is a pseudonym for sex here, then we are talking about unhappiness with one's physically sexed body. Which we would better to refer to as sex dysphoria.

And so long as gender changes its frame of reference continuously, people will continue to say the opposite of what they mean, and be perpetually misunderstood.

I know you are gender critical, but as you thought it was a well written article (I didn't, for the reasons I've expressed) I'm interested in what you understand to be the author's meaning each time they use the word gender - and all the other related words like male and female and 'daughter' for example.

Lily Maynard is a fantastically supportive parent

She really, really is. Her daughter writes some fantastically wonderful stuff and is clearly a well-adjusted young person thanks to the support she received from her family. Likewise Penny White and others who have written about their gender questioning children.

Itsallgoing is right, OP. I don't think the general public thinks of transwomen as women at all, rather as sad men with a sexual problem. People feel sorry for them.

Theres plenty of mention on here about people such as Lily Maynard who's child was never diagnosed as having gender dysphoria

When it comes to men taking resources and opportunities intended for women, a diagnosis of gender dysphoria isn't necessary. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Barrack, perhaps you're right and it would be better described as sex dysphoria, and people who experience it as transsexual. Although I am not convinced that there is no biological basis for differences in behaviour of the sexes (just reading Cordelia Fine atm before someone tells me to).

For those for whom gender is something other than a social construct, it only ever seems to be described as a feeling. Of course, feelings are genuine phenomena, but wheter your feelings are a consequence of social conditioning or biological pre-determination is clearly difficult to establish.

Yes, I also agree with your analysis 'BrandNewHouse', the author appears incredibly defensive.

@flowersonthepiano

I agree with you. I've read Cordelia Fine and also Siddhartha Mukherjee's great book on genetics which discusses this issue in the context of the complex relationship between genetic markers, the environment and homosexuality.

As a non-biologist, I'm definitely prepared to accept that there could well be a biological component to gender dysphoria and maybe even to 'gender identity,' or the strength of one's gender identity - the amount we don't know about the human brain and body is staggering. My understanding is that this hasn't yet been sufficiently tested to make a strong case one way or the other, and that it's (politically) a very difficult field to do research in.

As a social scientist I am very concerned that not everybody going through a similar set of experiences will have the same root causes and outcomes. I know that the research in this area is lacking. Research into detransitioning, into understanding the huge uptick in GNC teenage girls - it seems that this is actively opposed.

As a policymaker, I'm horrified that nobody seems to be doing proper risk assessments to understand the damage that could be done by non-evidence based policymaking, of the kind we currently have. As you say, all the evidence we have so far suggests most children do desist. If we're suddenly going to push affirmation, medication and self-declaration for children, including those who haven't reached Gillick competency, we are going to damage a lot of young people, and we're not going to be able to undo that damage.

@FreiasBathtub Thanks, I think we're agreed.

Where'd the OP go? They complain we don't want a discussion, then when we start discussing they seem to disappear...

Full disclosure: I also believe that there is a biological basis to some behaviour. Although considerably less than many people seem to wish were the case.

Like certain well-preserved animal instincts such as post-partum maternal protectiveness (based on my own personal experience - I've never felt more animalistic than when my children were newborns and the drive to not let them be parted from me further than my imaginary umbilical cord would stretch was overwhelming at that time). And even then, there are outliers who lack such instincts, so they may be the norm, but perhaps are not universally experienced.

However, the gloriousness of the human race is that we have the cognitive abilities to override our animal instincts where they conflict with our moral and ethical values. Which is why civilised societies don't operate on a survival of the fittest/women are property / kill the old and infirm when they are no longer productive type of reasoning.

We can reason. We can co-operate. We can remedy disadvantage and we can empathise.

We can overcome the baser animal instincts where they disadvantage others in favour of a fairer and ethical society.

Is this a real attempt at discussion OP? Would it not be better in parenting LGBT kids?

For the sake of discussion I will throw my hat into the ring and say I think I think dysphoria is sex dysphoria not to do with gender.

That gender being constantly changed over time and space simply 'reflects' sex so actually when people talk about gender dysphoria they might mean:
Sex dysphoria
Or
Discontent with the way society has apportioned some things to males and some to females

Because we cannot always know why someone thinks or feels dysphoric I guess I'd want to be very cautious about 'celebrating' any sense of a child being 'trans-identified'.

Instead I'd want to celebrate the child for who they are.

*BarrackerBarmer did you fest your baby would be swapped with another? I did! I was fearful in the early days I would go home with the wrong baby! I think that is all quite primal!

bethmins

Trolls like you start threads about the trans issue so that trolls like you can accuse MN of being all trans issues all the time.
That is a political dirty trick called rat-fucking.

@bethmins I did read most of the article, it tugs at the heart strings. It does feel sad that friends or family might distance themselves from a child or adult.

However, people do distance themselves from family or friends for many reasons.

My friends have a disabled child and hold certain views. Luckily, we are able to be friends and supportive without expecting to agree with them on everything.

Sometimes it feels with trans ideaology you have to buy into it all or you are left out. So maybe friends drift away if they cannot agree a person or parent is doing the right thing.

The problem is that word 'support'. My friend's child wanted a binder. Should she support that decision. For her dd at 13?

Some would say yes but research showed binders could be problematic. Anyway, I guess what I am trying to say is I do believe sex dysphoria is real but one has to be very cautious and even if it were/is real and innate in one child, it still doesn't make that child the opposite sex.

So doing things that might harm the child long term need very careful thought.

I think parents still need to be the ones to make this tough decisions for children. Sometimes on here it is very black and white. It's not in real life.

I completely get that parents with dysphoric children might do almost anything to keep them 'safe' as far as the they see 'safe'.

The good news is dysphoria doesn't always last. So, for me boxing children into an 'identit' can be harmful. Keeping things as open as possible is for me the way to give the child the most options.

As I say, @bethmins I think this issue is covered in parenting LHBT children on mumsnet, where a wide variety of views are also aired.

And it is important to acknowledge whatever our stance on this most parents love their children unconditionally, and whatever position they take up they do it for the love of their child. I think that is true.

One cannot paint those of us on the feminism boards as unconcerned about individuals. That would be wrong.

We must see the bigger wider ramifications of this level of manipulation.

The right of men to identify as women is in conflict with the right of women and girls to keep males out of female-only spaces. Is that clear enough for you Gibberty?

Well said.

the deliberate whattaboutery, and sea-lioning of terms that are all available in the dictionary, and common use implications in 2018 are very clear.

The classic trademark reversal of the TRA.

I strongly believe there is an innate neurological basis for the extent to which we internalize gendered expectations i.e. the social norms connected with our sex. And the evidence suggests that this may have to do with where people are on the autism spectrum, or not. The norms themselves vary greatly across time and culture but they generally uphold the power of men over women and therefore reflect biological differences as well. Some people internalize the other gender to the one normally associated with their sex. Most people internalize the gender associated with their sex. Some (particularly with asd) internalize neither. Some people begin by internalizing gender but later manage to liberate themselves and each other from it. These people we call feminists and feminist allies.

Exactly as much as the anti-trans threads belong under feminism.

Depends on the topic really, but generally what is described as 'anti-trans' is actually pro-female. So yes, belongs in feminism.

I always find it interesting when people assume that pro-women/girls is anti-trans.

Transgender advocacy leadership has repeatedly declared women's rights to be anti-trans.
As a result they argue that any advocacy of discussion of women's rights is anti trans hate speech. Especially if it is on the subject of male violence.