Trans is not gay ...

[OrchidInTheSun]

A great twitter rant: threadreaderapp.com/thread/1002681901491130371.html

I am with her.

Sex dysphoria is real. People with sex dysphoria need help to be happy in their own body.

Gender dysphoria is real. Every person who fights gender stereotypes has gender dysphoria. Trans people don't fight it. They give in to it.

There is no such thing as being born in the wrong body, and there's no such thing as 'innate gender identity' that overrides sex.

Sex is defined by reproductive role.
Men aren't women and women aren't men.

The worst thing for transactivists is that even if they mute everyone in the world, they will know that we know. They will never get over that.

And there's no such thing as a trans kid. Stop sterilising them.

It's certainly good riling up the troops vent. I don't think it would convince or endear anyone in the middle to her message, but then I don't think the writer intended to do that. It's a clear drawing of lines. While I agree that there is some damaging things going on (though I see it as more a continuation of similar issues under other trends, much like sloth said, rather than something new), there are quite a few things in this I don't agree with, whether it was written in anger or not.

I'm not usually against harsh language though I am curious whether she, or those here, would use the same words of 'sliced off', 'mutilated', and 'twisted nightmares of sterile heterosexuality' to lesbians and to a much lesser extent bisexual women over the last few decades who have also made the choice to have mastectomies and/or use testosterone to deal with dysphoria and/or to pass as male to gain better employment or any other reason. I'm pretty sure many members of detransitioner communities have asked for people to stop using the term mutilated, that while some individuals choose it for themselves it isn't appropriate to use it for everyone who has attempted medical transition, but I guess preaching to the choir is more important than caring about the people - including all those young lesbians who make up such a large proportion of detransitioners and reidentifiers - who have been hurt by the promises of hope and the very encouragement the author is meant to be fighting against. As I said, she's clearly not trying to convince anyone but the already converted, but some of the converted might take issue that someone who appears to have no experience with medical transition seems to want to repeatedly define it a way many consider unhelpful to the well-being of those trying to move past it and really does not stop those interested in it. It's pointless sensationalism to use that language.

I find her frustration at Pride being 'sold out' and the creation of lines between LGB and everyone else an erasure of history. Money has always been required for the marches and Gay Liberation movements and PRIDE marches have pretty much always had transsexuals and tranvestives as part of it. I really don't get the obsession with treating old LGB as some shining example of community and activism and political purity, for many it wasn't. I mean, seriously, a lot of early pride marches let in anyone willing to be seen publically with them, both for the sake of additional numbers and particularly if they could help pay fees often put upon them by police and such. This included everyone from churches to kink clubs. Now we have corporations doing the same thing, at least in areas where they'll likely be seen, and everyone else still begging for funds from everywhere. In more recent decades, there were certainly people using death and LGB kids suicide stats to get changes and still do in some places, like in the US, where many of those rights are not well protected if there at all. I don't get pretending that doesn't happen, or pretending LGB is a unified force when yeah, maybe heterosexual women weren't called phobic usually, but there are plenty of them and bisexual women who've been called traitors, breeders, enablers for being with men and plenty of stories of group throwing the other under the bus time and again. The history and continued intergroup fighting gets quite messy, we should be able to admit that.

There are trans people who have been arrested, beaten, rejected, disowned, despised, and sexualized. I mean, using the research I've used regularly on here, trans-identifed people are most likely out of LGBT to be abuse survivors. By her argument, what they've been through will mean they'll be as if not more stubborn. I really don't get the going on and on about not changing her mind so others should admit defeat, does that ever really work? I mean, there are still people who will go on about how marriage is only between a man and a woman, and nothing will change their mind. There are still people out there that think and will openly say they think only those who will uphold Christian traditions should be allowed to immigrate to the UK. A lot of people won't change their minds on things, but that isn't a convincing argument that they're right. That so much of this reads like it could come out of a brimstone preacher's pulpit with little if any editing shows the power of passionate words, I'm just not sure why the vent is great other than for the author to get all that off of her chest.

Have you ever written such a lengthy critique of the diatribes dealt out by transactivists ?

@rat 'Just like when I thought I might be a lesbian at 14 but then realised I totally wasn't; I wasn't lesbian for a bit and then stopped, I wasn't a lesbian ever. I was simply exploring my sexuality. That's par for the course when you're a teenager working out your place in the world.'

But thinking you might be a lesbian (I thought I might be one too, but much older than 14) doesn't put one on a path to blockers, cross sex hormones and double mastectomies.

@SlothSlothSloth '...teenagers who are truly struggling with their trans identities might find it easier to accept themselves now.'

But what does it mean to accept oneself if it means you need to change a whole bunch of things about yourself, including your physical body?

When you see people who identify as cats or dragons etc do you think, oh good, role models so struggling teens will know how to identify?

We are going to look back on this and wonder what the hell we were doing when we told girls and women it was OK to have healthy breasts and other body parts removed.

I'm not even saying it is always wrong to do so, for some it may be the only way. But the celebration of what must be a very, very difficult path in life is very chilling.

Trans ideology is a 'faith' or a 'religion'. And I say this as a Christian who fully reconcizes all the problems with the church. And as a person who has a religion I do think we need to be very careful about normalizing the irreversible.

RatRolyPoly
So those medical professionals, those psychologists, those doctors who come to the conclusion that whatever is driving a person to the brink of ...god knows what... is often their body; those professionals with the best interests of that person in mind agree that it is their body that is wrong

Do you really believe this? The doctors are aware that nobody is actually, literally born in the wrong body. They are aware that this perception is a delusion. They are also aware that in very rare, very extreme cases, the only way to relieve the mental anguish of a patient who is suffering from this delusion is to alter the body to relieve their suffering.

OldCrone a friend is a prison psychologist with a doctorate. When talking to her she always refers to "born in the wrong body"; apparently that's an accepted paraphrase of a trans person's situation.

Oh and Juzza, yes, I do see your point, not that I think that makes her language and aggression level any more acceptable by my standards. But I do see what you mean.

And DN4, really interesting post.

This writer is a lesbian and seeing the T taking over LGBT and trying to kick out the L.

Gender dysphoria is real and so is AGP. It's very concerning seeing the rapid rise in gender referrals in children, and according to my teenage daughter, trans ideology is all over social media. You have youtubers talking to children. It's trendy in schools and colleges. I'm in groups on facebook and I see trans talk being the norm in discussing unrelated subjects by young people. There is social contagion here.

In my day it was punk then new romantic...today it's trans but with politics instead of music.

Truth doesn't how many people say it, or the status of people who say it. There is no such thing as a brain in the wrong body, or a busy having an opposite sexed brain. Does it matter that medics use the phrase? Well, it makes no difference to the fact that it's a lie, bit it definitely matters because it means health and education policies are being recommended and built on the foundation of the lie.

I wouldn't be so arrogant as to say it doesn't matter that people of authority use 'born in the wrong body'. It does matter, because it means legislation and public health provision are being predicated on a falsity.

Rat
When talking to her she always refers to "born in the wrong body"; apparently that's an accepted paraphrase of a trans person's situation.

Do you think she means you to take that literally? What is the scientific basis for such a statement?

When talking to her she always refers to "born in the wrong body"

Is she describing how her patients talk about their own situation?

What about the GP who helped a trans patient live like a woman by finding someone to give him make up lessons

Italian I believe the only way some people can accept themselves is to change their body to look like that of the opposite sex as much as they can. Such people have always, always existed. Whether or not we think it’s right that they have to change themselves in this way to be happy is neither here nor there; these people clearly exist and transition does help them.

I don’t believe in brains in the wrong body. I don’t believe many of the current wave of trans people, especially the teens, are genuinely trans. Genuinely trans, to me, means genuinely dysphoric in a way that only transition can address.

we talk to people with Alzheimers by going along with what they are saying rather than correcting them and telling them they are wrong. there is a treatment for multiple personality disorder which involves making avatars to represent all the different people the sufferer experiences themselves to be. we usually talk to religious people without asserting that there is no God every time God is mentioned. the way we talk to people concerning their thoughts and beliefs reflects (hopefully) how we think that person is best helped by our conversation. it does not make their thoughts and beliefs true.

We don't try to force other people to obey laws based on their delusions though.

@SlothSlothSloth

'Italian I believe the only way some people can accept themselves is to change their body to look like that of the opposite sex as much as they can.'

You may be surprised (prepare to be surprised!) but I agree with you. But I do feel this section of people is a very small section of peopel. That it is such a major change that for their own benefit such people should be given lots of time and help.

De-medicalising the transsexual/trans gender/trans situation will not help these trans people.

I am not against trans people but I am against self id and I am against normalizing medical treatment for anyone who feels a disparity between their body and the way they perceive 'gender'.

@SlothSlothSloth

'Such people have always, always existed.'

Exactly how long we have had transsexual people with us is not clear to me.

I am sure you know ooor Lili Elbe, died from an operation in 1931.

Christine Jorgensen had a different (successful) operation, she was not the first but waa back in 1951 and so actually 'sexually' transitioning doesn't date back a long time. Prior to this might men have appeared as women to date other men, were they trans gender or maybe just gay, and likewise might women have appeared as men to date women?

I don't think every women who pretended to be a man to get a job or avoid a man was necessarily what we would now know as trans gender.

But if you have evidence of a long trans history of course I am open to reading it.

'Whether or not we think it’s right that they have to change themselves in this way to be happy is neither here nor there'

Of course people must do what is right and legal for them. I've not seen many people complaining about this (if any). Only really when it is children who are too young, legally, to make this decision.

'..these people clearly exist and transition does help them.'

No disagreement from me.

Another group of people also exist, those who are not dysphoric and making demands on women and their spaces. I think you will find many women, including many feminists were not distressed about being in company with trans women.

It is the TRAs that are the problem.

And I really doubt anyone really thinks the massive numbers of young girls wanting to become 'boys is a naturally occurring phenomenon (I am saying that in a totally neutral way, if you know what I mean) in the way that a very small number of adult men or women expressing a desire to transition is.

'I don’t believe in brains in the wrong body.' - I agree.

'I don’t believe many of the current wave of trans people, especially the teens, are genuinely trans.' - I agree.

'Genuinely trans, to me, means genuinely dysphoric in a way that only transition can address.' - I agree,

Wow, when we agree we really agree.

Agree with most of what sloth is saying and all of italian

So thats nice