Prison Governors speak directly of their concerns for vulnerable women

[R0wantrees]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/governors-fight-trans-inmates-in-women-s-jails-vg0kpv5q0
The Times:
"Prison governors say that there is a risk to women’s safety if transgender sex offenders held in men’s prisons are transferred to female jails."

"Andrea Albutt, president of the Prison Governors Association, told The Mail on Sunday: “I have seen women feeling very threatened by transgender prisoners’ presence . . . To put men who declare they are women into women’s prisons would be very damaging.”

Is this the beginning of being able to speak clearly about how we maintain safeguards to protect people who are vulnerable?

The TRA narrative on this is that if you get self ID, they will still have to risk assess every prisoner for where they place them. I.e. Every single prisoner will be risk assessed fo

🙄 for whether they go in a male or female prison. Do you buy that? I don't.

Just say no ...

Lisa Muggeridge comments on safeguarding frameworks. The thread raises important points & worth reading in full:
twitter.com/lisamuggeridge4/status/1003941873885597696

(extracts)
"Within equality legislation we have privision for exceptionally vulnerable groups. Mental health patients, where rape of female patients has been a major deal. Prisoners where they are VERY vulnerble women. Many with traumatic brain injury and history of sexual abuse"

"MOthers in particular are LEGALLY OBLIGED to assess someone on their behaviour, the risk they pose, and not to conisder their identity first. Or they lose their kids if someone hurts them."

"Except now if any of these vulnerable stakeholders discuss these frameworks they can be punched Or threatened. Or doxxed because SOME trans women believed that their inclusion in these frameworks made them the ONLY stakeholder. THis was delusional. Not shared by all trans women."

see also: idgeofreason.wordpress.com

Firstly, if they were presenting as male when they committed their crime then they should be in a man's jail- no exceptions

Secondly, those who were presenting as female when they committed their crimes should be in special units for trans people.

Under no circumstances is it acceptable to put a penis owner into a women's prison.

I have no idea why the trans community feel so strongly about this issue though. Prisoners are the least sympathetic group of people I can imagine!

Would a ftm evet be placed in a male prison? Have any requested this - has it happened? Would they be asessed as vulnerable and refused (ie as a person with a female body locked up with 500 male bodies). I would really worry that they would be in a very dangerous situation - even if that's what they asked for.

I agree that it is never going to be reasonable to put a biological male in a women’s prison. Trans people need special units for them.

They should have special segregated areas for trans identifying people if they are judged to be at risk in the prison of their own sex. Prison is not a privilege, they shouldn’t be allowed to pick and choose like a holiday destination.
Every woman in prison is vulnerable and placing male bodied people in with them, where they can’t walk away or self exclude is indefensible. Not that women should ever be forced to walk away or self exclude, but prisoners do not even have the option.

Would a ftm ever be placed in a male prison?

Great question. I believe the MoJ reluctantly confirmed there are none currently. But not sure what Self-ID would mean for them if it became law?

Also totally agree with PP that no one with a penis should be in a woman's jail.

Fairplayforwomen have done some great work on this. Lots of stuff on their site including:
fairplayforwomen.com/prison-data-confirmed/

They do not buy the TRA line on 'oh it will be ok there's risk assessments you know'.

@R0wantrees I've put Lisa's thread into Threadreader threadreaderapp.com/thread/1003783835581145093.html

Seems madness to me that this would ever be considered a good idea and I can't believe there are sex offenders now housed with women. It is just so contrary to common sense.

But, here we are it seems. I wonder, is there an employee angle here: it seems mostly prison officers are against this. There's the risk to the inmates, the impact on morale / behaviour (if women feel threatened / that their privacy and dignity is being compromised then I'm sure it will have an impact) and the requirement for extra risk assessment. Plus potentially issues if a prison officer is forced to pat down someone of the opposite sex against their will. Surely, this could create a hostile work environment (to say the least)?

bd67th Thank you.

I think more people need to listen to what Lisa Muggeridge is saying about safeguarding principles and the consequences of disregarding well established policies and practise.

It's important to remember that the focus is on male-born prisoners convicted of sexual offences.

What of the male-born prisoners who have committed sexual offences or violence against women but have not being convicted?

We know that these offences are underreported and difficult to secure convictions for.

Or who are now counted as female in the stats?

That Lisa Muggeridge thread is brilliant - any way she could publish something like that somewhere prominent (like a newspaper)? Really to the point and clear.

TRAs have to support the right of violent rapists to go into women's prisons. Self ID doesn't work if you say you agree that this person is a woman because they say so but not this one. It's all or nothing.

Karen Jones was transferred to female prison estate before having surgery or obtaining a GRC.
My understanding is that her successful appeal against the Home Office which led to her transfer set a number of precidents.

Relevent thread from earlier this year:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3180050-Invited-to-talk-at-the-House-of-Lords
the OP wrote,
"Karen Jones killed her boyfriend (when Karen was still a man) and wrapped his body in sheets and a duvet. It went undiscovered for 3 weeks. The body was so decomposed that the cause of death could not be established so Jones was convicted of manslaughter and released after 2 and half years in prison. A big part of her defense was that she was confused and distressed by her sexuality and gender (thus leading you to kill - as you do). Shortly after release Jones went to a trans clothes shop and took the shop assistant hostage, stuck a lemon in her mouth and violently assaulted her and tried to rape her. Jones only stopped when she failed to become aroused with her "female penis". Jones claimed she was driven to commit the crime to be put back in prison in order to get the gender reassignment surgery she needed. She was given an indeterminate sentence but was released after several years.

Jones has now been invited to talk to the House of Lords about how life can be made easier and better for transgender prisoners."