To think ignoring our biological disadvantages will mean we never achieve real equality?

[Bumpitybumper]

Off the top of my head I have thought of the following potential disadvantages that arise from our biology:

1. Mensturating including associated PMS, pain and general inconvenience
2. Pregnancy including conditions such as SPD, hypermesis and preeclampsia
3. Childbirth including mental and physical damage plus hormonal aftermath
4. Breastfeeding including pain, sleep deprivation and time consuming nature
5. Contraception to control fertility can cause depression and have other unwanted side effects
6. Menopause, admittedly I'm not 100 percent on impact of this but understand it can be pretty horrific
7. Women tend to be physically weaker so less able to defend themselves or carry out manual tasks

I am struggling to think of any comparative male biological disadvantages. Yet it seems almost all policies and initiatives set up to improve equality completely disregard these differences and seem keen to pretend that if you just encouraged women to behave differently (e g. Go into STEM careers) or got women and men to share childcare/paternity leave etc then women would be able to compete with men successfully without making any real concessions to our different biology and therefore wants and needs.

Basically what I'm saying is why is the emphasis on getting women to fit in and adapt to a male working environment when as a class we are always going to suffer from these enormous disadvantages? Why isn't the emphasis more on adapting the male working environment to make it more female friendly?

Because changing the system requires men to be slightly inconvenienced. To give up a space on the bench. And they don’t want to do that.

This picture has always struck a chord with me.

I can’t understand why those who are the tallest would ever screech at the shortest getting more boxes.

@Bowlofbabelfish
Yes, I can understand why men don't want to do this, but why aren't women pushing more for this? I actually think pretending that everyone is biologically the same and should be able to achieve the same in an environment skewed towards men is discrimination.

Had this conversation this morning.
I agree completely op, men's roles and behaviors are seen as ideal which we have to work and live up to. Basic biology and women's needs are disregarded entirely and are seen as women being fussy/entitled/fussy-take your pick.
On mumsnet just recently a thread about a woman mentioning her role as a wife and mother shock horror. How dare she! Men don't! This is exactly the problem. We shouldn't have to be like men to succeed!

You’re right

Trouble is, lots of us don’t see it til it’s too late eg we are at home with young baby - and not much time for engaging and fighting then!

@Adviceplease360

A lot of us don't have the choice to be like men. Even if you avoid having children and associated issues, most of us will face the menopause etc. I actually shocked myself writing this post how little I knew about the menopause. One of life's dirty secrets that men would rather not know about therefore kept out the public eye...

Bumpity, definitely.
We're not permitted to say we struggle with heavy periods/pregnancy/menopause because nobody wants to admit the obvious-men and women are different!!! Our brains are different, we have different needs and priorities.
By not acknowledging our inherent needs and differences we are doing ourselves a huge disservice which as you rightly say is only acknowledged when its too late.

Sorry fascinated made that point.

This is why seeking equality is ultimately misguided. Seeking to be equal in the ballpark built by and for men will never really work. We are trying to squeeze ourselves into

We need to tear it all up and rebuild a new ballpark by men AND women, for women AND men.

Or maybe a playground instead of a ballpark.

Oops.

We are trying to swizzle ourselves into a mans world. What we need to do is tar down patriarchy and build a new World.

@TheClitterati

Yes, I'm starting to think complete revolution is the only way.

but why aren't women pushing more for this?

I would say because the media generally has demonised radical feminism so much. I read my husband the definition of radical feminism a while back. He’d asked a bit nervously what radical meant in this context (‘my wife has been radicalised!’)

He looked a bit confused and said ‘but none of that is radical, it’s just common sense...’ and he’s right. Say radical feminist to people and they’ll look worried. DEFINE radical feminism and an awful lot of people are more ‘well yeah, doh...’

And yet look around at the way the media portrays feminism. Feminazis, man haters, bra burners. Hairy blah blah blah. Liberal feminism has been promoted instead but it’s just appeasement really.

This is why articles like that one in the DM today are so good - because it used the word ‘women’ instead of ‘feminists.’ And just doing that changes the tone of the whole thing, because the man or woman in the street reads that and can’t dismiss it as ‘feminazis’ - now it’s their wife, or daughter, or them.

To redesign our power structures so that they benefit EVERYONE is truly a radical thought, and people have been nailed to trees for less.

Sorry for appalling typing. I'm on my phone on a beach and can barely see Phone.

Fuck knows how we tear it all down and revolt. But an awareness that equality in a mans world is basically being grateful for crumbs is a good start.

Seek liberation rather than equality.

I can’t understand why those who are the tallest would ever screech at the shortest getting more boxes.

Indeed.

OP, I agree. The default is always the male and the female is the 'other'. Our whole legal and social system is skewed in favour of the male as a default. To survive and succeed, we have to pretend that we are exactly the same as men. Except we are not, so we inevitably fail and are relegated to second place.

I think it's a long-term project and needs a fundamental restructuring of society and its institutions. Equality is a hollow concept. I have a lot of thoughts on this issue, too many to write down here. I think we need to move away from a neoliberal state that expects and rewards selfishness. We need to encourage cohesion and care, not just for those in our immediate family, but those in wider society. We need a state that genuinely supports us, not just gives the impression it does. We need to stop simply valuing traditionally male attributes.

But at the same time, we need to avoid falling back on traditional gender roles and just consign women to the family home. We need to ensure that caregiving is given equal merit to paid work and realistically that will only happen if we start compelling men to take on an equal share of it.

It's such an interesting and deep question isn't it? This is just a snapshot of what I think- there is so much more and I have not expressed myself very articulately.

I can’t understand why those who are the tallest would ever screech at the shortest getting more boxes.

It's that saying isn't it: to the privileged, equality looks like oppression. They don't see their inherent advantage. If they got a box, they would be even taller. So when positive discrimination initiatives are brought in, white men think that this means they will be discriminated against. Because they cannot see that they have a natural biological and racial advantage already.

"adapt to a male working environment"

Define a male working environment and a female working environment

"Our whole legal and social system is skewed in favour of the male as a default."

Not custody cases

fmsfms I will have a go at this.

I think what is meant is that in the workplace, it is assumed that you do not have caregiving obligations, so it favours men over women because men tend to be able to avoid caregiving obligations. The reason why so many women give up work after having children is because work is often incompatible with caregiving. It doesn't need to be, but it very often is.

The second point re children and disputes over where the child lives, this is not really the law 'favouring' mothers or making things better for women. Firstly, it reflects the reality that women are usually the primary caregivers. It is usually in the child's best interests to remain with a primary caregiver. Relatively few men (apart from the loud voices in F4J) actually want to be full time caregivers, or they feel that they cannot because that goes against social expectations. It's not really favouring a woman by reinforcing that she is the one responsible for childcare. That said, the courts have now moved towards shared care as the norm. It's certainly not the case that dads are always sidelined in favour of mums. What you also have to remember is that many disputes over where the child lives involve domestic abuse and controlling behaviour. It is an inescapable truth that male on female violence is more prevalent. The law has to balance that too. For instance, the ringleader of F4J had been convicted of violence against the mother of his child.

So hang on, what exact adjustments do you want and what would the cost of them be? Do you want to give employers a reason for a pay gap...even for women who experiance none of the problems you mention?( ok children ain't a problem as such)

If your health problems are so severe that you contribute significantly less than a man, why would you expect the same reward and opportunities?

Many women don't get debilitating period or menopausal problems or quickly find ways to manage the symptoms . women tend to be weaker, although in our office I tend to do the lifting because my back isn't prone to pain. We need to be able to treat each person as an individual not promote class-based sterotypes.

I don't think we will get equality till men have an equal opportunity and expectation to contribute to family caring.

And just a couple of corrections. Men do have hormonal issues...at least six times a day plus the "mid life crisis" which I suspect is has a biological origin. Male depression and health in general tends to cause bigger problems than in women, possibly just socialisation, not going to the doctors. There is also no recognised known difference between women's and men's brains beyond that which is taught

This is an excellent thread on the facilitation of men in the workplace and the structural inequalities that women face.

custody cases - the primary carer generally gets custody. Due to the stark structural inequalities in the workplace that’s generally women. A man who was primary carer would get custody if no reason not to.

SmG you’re not a member of F4J by any chance are you?

" Due to the stark structural inequalities in the workplace that’s generally women."

Yes, it has nothing to do with women growing the baby inside them, feeding it for and feeling it grow for 9 months, giving birth to it, breast feeding it etc..

Yep nothing to do with that, it's David Brent's up and down the country telling mothers to take maternity leave and watch their baby grow up instead of coming back to do the accounts.

Question: should midwives start giving the baby to Dad to hold first instead of the mother? Wouldn't that encourage Dad to play the primary caregiver role? Why should mum get first dibs

""adapt to a male working environment"

Define a male working environment and a female working environment"

Well, for one thing I'd say that somewhere with really strong air conditioning where most of the women are really cold is an environment originally planned for men.

I suppose strict hours is also easier for men who didn't traditionally have caring responsibilities, but flexibility is becoming more common now.

An environment were children can't come in I suppose as well. I know someone who managed her nursing career by having her son at work with her after school. Of course, that wouldn't be allowed now for health & safety insurance reasons, etc. and as a single mother she wouldn't have the progression she did then.

I would also say a competitive, agressive environment, but I know that you could argue that those aren't innate masculine traits.

Women have smaller bladders and can't relieve themselves standing up so anything where access to a toilet is difficult e.g. outdoor jobs are male environments. Anything where you have to carry heavy stuff e.g. building, although I know some women are capable and want to work with heavy lifting.

"So when positive discrimination initiatives are brought in, white men think that this means they will be discriminated against. Because they cannot see that they have a natural biological and racial advantage already."

Not all white men are privileged though so I suppose some might think that they'll be even more disadvantaged... It's because it's done at group level, I can see why some people feel resentful.

"Well, for one thing I'd say that somewhere with really strong air conditioning where most of the women are really cold is an environment originally planned for men."

The funny thing about office AC units is they're equally capable of blowing out hot air as well as cold air, so that's an absurd statement to make.

Women and men have different tolerance/preferences when it comes to room temperature.

In the Summer when I know the office AC will be on then I bring a long sleeve top to put on if it gets too cold for me. There's always several women that come in wearing short sleeve tops or sleeveless tops who complain that it's too cold with the AC on. Not fair on the men who because of office dress codes can only go as low as a short sleeve shirt.

Question: should midwives start giving the baby to Dad to hold first instead of the mother? Wouldn't that encourage Dad to play the primary caregiver role?

That’s what we did actually. DH held him first while I was sorted out after the few teeny tiny things that had gone wrong. I was a bit busy haemorrhaging and DH did a sterling job. Generally skin to skin with Mum is preferred initially to establish feeding. If you’re not bf then no reason dad can’t. If you are bf then dad can after an hour or so.

Men can be equal carers and equal parents. They just have to make sure that they work their lives that way. DH and I have that balance. If other couples don’t want to, or find it doesn’t suit their work or life then that’s up to them. If the man decides to work all hours, duck out of child rearing and all the hard yards in favour of work, while the woman goes part time then again that’s up to them. The man benefits in his career.
And if that marriage breaks down, the woman would be the primary carer.

Men aren't being denied opportunities to be equal carers for their children in marriages that are ongoing. If you’re living together with the mother, both working then it’s your own choice if you’re not an equal parent.

I see far too many men whining the ex has the kids when they did the square root of fuck all when they actually lived together. If you want to be an equal parent then do it