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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Terri Strange

60 replies

Delphiniumum · 01/06/2018 01:35

I'm really struggling with her ideas. In theory, I can see where she's coming from, but I'm unsure how they would practically work.

For example, she states it's unfair that women with children take up priority in refugees or homeless spaces over childless women. I'm unsure what we could do to rectify this? One home available and two homeless women - the only difference between them being one has a child and one doesn't, who should take the house? Surely, when we have limited resources, those resources have to be given to the most vulnerable. Would she suggest that the childless woman take the homeless space while the mother and her child stayed in the streets instead? Until we have equal resources for everyone, not prioritising is impossible. Confused

She also thinks that women should stop breeding and instead focus on creating a better more equal society. Again, good in theory, but wouldn't the human race die out if everybody did that? Does she mean that we should reduce the birth rate until this better society has been realised?

She recognised that lesbians and heterosexuals and bisexuals exist, and feel sexual atttaction, but rejects the language of "sexual orientation". She positions herself as "against heterosexuality" and feels women should resist it.

I'm not a radfem, and apparently these are basic rad fem ideas, she says.
Any thoughts and/or help understanding? Pointers in the right direction.

OP posts:
NeverLovedElvis · 01/06/2018 10:56

I don't think it is fair to compare somedyke to riley dennis at all. Riley tries to guilt trip women for not wanting to have sex with him. Somedyke has only said that our sexuality can be influenced by the society we live in and that we should be able to talk and think about that. She hasn't tried to bully anyone into having sex with her!

I'm a feminist and a heterosexual and have given this quite a lot of thought over the past few years. I'm fairly sure that if I had grown up in a different environment, where being straight, gay, lesbian or bi were genuinely considered to be equally valid and acceptable, and were equally visible to me, that I would have been (at least a little bit) bi.

Compulsory heterosexuality is a real thing.

Uyulala · 01/06/2018 12:46

I don't think it's possible to change which sex you are sexually attracted to. Even political lesbians who make a conscious choice to "resist heterosexuality" aren't lesbians since if they were lesbians there would be no need to "resist" it, as it wouldn't be present!

A female who is in a relationship with a male due to the hetero pressure/culture, but who doesn't feel real attraction to males, is still a lesbian imo. It's how you feel that makes your sexuality, not logic or who you happen to be dating.

Making a decision (essentially a choice) on your sexuality, implies there was another viable option (e.g. you felt attraction for both sexes).

Just my opinion of course.

JessicaEccles · 01/06/2018 12:58

Are you willing to concede that lesbian sexuality is so flexible and that they could also find males attractive? Why is it only people with heterosexual attraction who need to open up to the idea of "fluid sexuality"?

And how this is deiffenre from the right wing evangelical view that people can be 'cured' of being gay? Surely if sexuality is that fluid, gay men and lesbians would be able to be heterosexual if they put their mind to it.

FWIW I have grown up in social and political circles that would make lesbianism the easy not only positive choice. However I have never fancied a woman sexually. (Bizarrely, no woman has ever fancied me either).

SomeDyke · 01/06/2018 15:06

I think that sexuality/sexual orientation is possibly an emergent property. Our genetics/neonatal environment can set up propensities, that are influenced by our social and devlopmental environment. It's not like simple stuff like blue eyes, or hair texture. It's a complicated human behaviour. And I'm frankly slightly confused by the current almost absolutist position that many seem to hold that it is innate (and homophobic to question it). Personally, I think that was a political choice made to improve lesbian and gay rights here and in the US. But I think now it is stifling debate and thinking somewhat.

I think I'll just have to reread my Celia Kitzinger (The Social Construction of Lesbianism), but I'll leave tackling Monique Wittig for the moment unless anyone has any particular insights!

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 01/06/2018 15:41

Aaw I love that there is a thread on here referencing Monique wittig!

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 01/06/2018 15:43

I think she was writing in a different time when gender was more roles than innate identity and most lesbians (unless previously in a straight relationship) did not have children.

I struggle with her a bit but she's good for thought experiments including looking at language.

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 01/06/2018 15:45

thearcticfeminist.wordpress.com/2013/11/27/male-violence-effects-us-all/

Terri is fab.
I probably don't agree with her on everything
I'm very much a fence sitter on mother privilege but I do see how I access it especially as a lesbian

tobee · 01/06/2018 15:53

Call me naive, but someone starting up saying bitchy rant puts my back up to start with

LassWiADelicateAir · 01/06/2018 16:12

This reply has been deleted

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KnitFastDieWarm · 01/06/2018 18:02

I’m bisexual. When younger I always thought that everyone was ‘a little bit bi’ but as I’ve got older and actually listened to non-bi people regarding their own sexuality I’m generally of the opinion that some people really ARE exclusively attracted to one sex on a very visceral, primal level...and that’s ok. I sometimes think there’s a danger of seeing bisexuality/fluidity/political lesbianism (although I hate the latter term) as a kind of ‘correct’ open minded position. But sexual orientation is perhaps the one area in life where there should be zero pressure to be equal opportunities.
It’s a complicated topic and I think many people oversimplify and confuse theoretical positions with demanding that people fancy them (looking at you, Riley Grin)

SardineReturns · 01/06/2018 18:36

Also don't see the parallel.

Conversations between women around sexuality and what things would look like around attraction / relationships in a patriarchy free world are interesting thought experiments. We're not there and we can't know but we can consider whether sexuality would look different / family structures / all sorts of things.

People like RD are saying get with the program and take some cock otherwise you're a bitch and that is not the same at all.

SardineReturns · 01/06/2018 18:42

In general there is a world of difference between the age old thing of be-cocked poeple telling lesbians off, and feminists considering what dynamics between the sexes etc would be like if there was no patriarchy, no compulsory heterosexuality etc etc

In much of the world heterosexualiaty is literally or pretty much compulsory in society, in many other parts of the world heterosexuality is still the norm, the big sell from the vast majority of kids stuff etc. And of course a lot of discrimination exists. So yes it's a valid conversation. And that's a difference as well. There is a difference between saying in a world without compulsory heterosexuality (and monogamy tbh) would more people choose partners of either sex, the other argument is towards women who say they are not attracted to men and get loads of shit on the net telling them to shut the fuck up and suck some dick.

I don't understand why anyone would think these are the same.

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 01/06/2018 18:55

www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2016/05/04/over_80_percent_of_bisexuals_end_up_in_straight_relationships_why.html

Not posting this as agreement with the content- just the statistic.
My take on 85% of adult bisexual people being in straight relationships is that patriarchy forces you towards that path.

In that climate, it's easy to think that there are women in straight relationships who might prefer, all things being equal, to be in relationships with women.

Not quite the same as 'all women are innately lesbians' etc but in a similar vein.

NeverLovedElvis · 01/06/2018 20:54

lass I understand your point but don't you think there is a difference between saying you 'could' be attracted to a certain group of people if you put your mind to it, and saying that you 'should' put your mind to it otherwise you are a bigot?
To my mind, the former is food for thought while the latter is deeply unpleasant and entitled.

LassWiADelicateAir · 01/06/2018 21:03

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thebewilderness · 01/06/2018 21:05

I understand your point but don't you think there is a difference between saying you 'could' be attracted to a certain group of people if you put your mind to it, and saying that you 'should' put your mind to it otherwise you are a bigot?

That seems rather a large difference to me too.
I do not care much for these kinds of discussions because I am opposed to women's no assumed to be the beginning of a negotiation.

NeverLovedElvis · 01/06/2018 22:37

But nobody is actually asking you to touch a vagina, are they? Just suggesting you think about why you feel that revulsion.
From talking to friends who are lesbian I get the impression that many lesbian women have considered and examined their sexuality more than many hetero women do. Probably because being straight is considered the default position. The way I interpreted somedykes comment was that maybe straight women could benefit from this introspection too.

LaSqrrl · 01/06/2018 22:59

OP: and apparently these are basic rad fem ideas, she says

Strange is actually a marxist feminist, not a radical feminist. As thebewilderness has said, she (and a few others) have been kicked out of radfem groups, generally for core inconsistencies towards radical feminism, as well as the attacks.

LassWiADelicateAir · 02/06/2018 01:40

I understand your point but don't you think there is a difference between saying you 'could' be attracted to a certain group of people if you put your mind to it, and saying that you 'should' put your mind to it otherwise you are a bigot?

No- both seem to be demanding an explanation as to why I say I do not find women sexually attractive.

But nobody is actually asking you to touch a vagina, are they? Just suggesting you think about why you feel that revulsion

Why? I wouldn't dream of telling a lesbian to do think about that- why am I expected to justify my sexual preferences?

The way I interpreted somedykes comment was that maybe straight women could benefit from this introspection too

How arrogant- this sounds exactly what Riley is saying.

Oh I see I have been deleted- what for saying I find the thought of having sex with a woman revolting?

thebewilderness · 02/06/2018 01:50

Maybe after five or six duplicate posts accusing SD of being a misogynist, and some of them being removed, you might reconsider your behavior here, Lass.

thebewilderness · 02/06/2018 01:51

How arrogant- this sounds exactly what Riley is saying.

No, it doesn't. Not unless you are suffering a pretty extreme case of confirmation bias.

LassWiADelicateAir · 02/06/2018 02:02

I think it is extremely misogynistic and arrogant to go on and on with this line of why don't you think about it/ you would benefit from a bit more introspection /why don't you consider the possibility of being more flexible?

Doesn't no mean no ? Apparently not.

I see not the slightest difference between what Riley is saying and what is being posted by some on here.

AngryAttackKittens · 02/06/2018 02:05

Unless SomeDyke's goal is to persuade unwilling women to have sex with her, which it clearly is not, then no, she does not sound like Riley Dennis, and the attempt to conflate the two is goady.

AngryAttackKittens · 02/06/2018 02:07

Which isn't to say that I agree with Terri or with SomeDyke (I don't), but the difference in motivations is fairly obvious, and conflating the two is letting men off the hook for being pushy creeps.

thebewilderness · 02/06/2018 02:11

Do you mean the person in the video or just the quotes you brought over from another thread?
It is very difficult to understand what you are accusing people of when it consists of "some one said some things somewhere".

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