Playing 'devils advocate'

[snettles]

So what should have been a nice walk in the sun with DP is me now home alone and fuming because he's pulled his 'devils advocate' act again.

Ok, so personally and professionally I am very engaged in equality issues. Every so often my otherwise decent and 'woke' DP seems to feel the need to throw a question at me as the 'expert', usually along the disingenuous lines of 'but surely that's sexist to men/racist to white people, isn't it?' type reasoning. I'm all for discussion, but this is of the level where I start questioning his basic values/what he actually believes in, to be asking me these questions in the first place. When I point that out, it's all 'oh, I'm just playing devil's advocate' and/or he has some friends who can be sexist, racist, whatever and he's putting these questions to me so he can use my answers in conversations with them.

I am so fucking annoyed at this. His inability to see the absolute arrogance and privilege of the 'intellectual' game playing involved, the talking about sexism and racism as abstract concepts, as opposed to real things that have a real effect on real peoples' lives. Then the expecting me to jump through hoops to 'explain' issues and justify my views, followed by the patronising 'I was just playing devil's advocate' when I get worked up (the horror!) at the minimising of peoples' real and lived experiences.

This isn't the first time I've had this happen to me, it's always men that do it and it fucking grinds my gears. I genuinely don't think he gets why this upsets me, which is maddening in its own right. Any tactics for shutting it down in the future are most welcome.

Sorry, had a glass of wine to calm down, so may not be completely coherent!

I mentally replace "playing devil's advocate" with "being a twat" whenever anyone says it.

His inability to see the absolute arrogance and privilege of the 'intellectual' game playing involved, the talking about sexism and racism as abstract concepts, as opposed to real things that have a real effect on real peoples' lives

Tell him this sentence. It screams privilege that he can even discuss it as “something that happens to other people”

You, his wife are “other people”

I think there are some people who are professional Devil's advocates - who live to just wind up the person they're talking to (my dad is one).

Then there's people who are really feeling it out - my DP is like this - it's like he hasn't thought deeply about it, so regurgitates what 'the man on the clapham omnibus' would say, and yes, it can be frustrating. To his credit though, it does slowly percolate through - he's come round to my opinions on prostitution, stripping (he was always a kind hearted soul who didn't like the idea, but had swallowed the empowerment line).

He most recently opened a discussion on a particular anime series that made him uncomfortable, because it's clearly animated by a gay man who puts the same emphasis and lingering scenes/detail on the male characters that so much other anime puts on women's breasts and upskirt shots. The first time it came up, he didn't really believe me, then, a few days later, we were watching something else, and I commented on it, and he acknowledged that yes, he understood why some anime wasn't that appealing to women because of the constant massive cleavage and bouncing boobs.

I guess I'm saying - is he just generally a jerk about it, or is he a jerk at first who then realises he's being a jerk about it?

Would throwing the ball back quickly work? Either 'before I answer, I'd be interested to know what you really think' (don't omit the 'interested') or if he often does it call him out straight away 'I assume you're playing devils advocate again, how about you have a think first and then try a more constructive approach?' ... something like that anyway.

Thanks for the replies. Ataterf I like your style
Disturbingly I do believe it's a feeling out of the issues, as you describe it. He's a decent, moral person, who wants to 'get it', but doesn't get how maddening his approach is.

Errol thanks, that's a really good approach. I get pulled in too quickly and then get annoyed with myself for becoming part of the game. Throwing it back, directly asking if he's playing DA will definitely pull him up and make the point that I'm on to him.

What's really frustrating is that I'm all for having a discussion, but I want it to be with him and his genuine opinions. Not being worked up into a lather and then be made to feel silly for being upset because it was all theoretical.

Perhaps you should return the compliment and ask if he has considered the possibility that he is a narcissist.
Just playing devils advocate based on his inability to empathize with other humans.

I too have a knee jerk problem solvers response to being asked questions. This is why I am a sucker for a troll.

I've met several people like this OP...all male!

Differentiation between groups of people does not make something racist or sexist in itself. That actually requires something more.. a discrimination or treatment that is based on an unjustified assumption /stereotype / belief that one group is inherently less good than the other.
So usually a short answer of no it's not racist/ sexist , it's probably differentiation
That's why it is not sexist to have men's and women's sport. It's a differentiation that enables both groups to be able to compete at high levels.
AWS redress a balance.. because selection is discriminatory, differentiating based on sex Then allows the end result to more closely match that which would have been obtained if there had been no discrimination in the first place.
If men want higher pensions because as a whole they die younger again that is more differentiation than discrimination, because they die younger is fact. It's not a made up idea by one group to "prove " their superiority to another and so mistreat another group

Facts can be hard to truly understand which is why Americans often think non-whites are more likely to be criminal. Take away poverty and there isn't any difference in crime - poverty not race is the cause.

Averages also are difficult from a human perspective. Just because on average a group behaves in a certain way does not mean that it is totally fair to differentiate based on that behaviour. Like the whole class getting detention because of a few idiots. The group is being used as a proxy for what we really want to know. That's why it's no longer ok to give young women lower car insurance premiums. It is seen as penalising too many young men too harshly for the behaviour of a few

Since many things are not black and white, being open to thinking about them and still concluding that sexism exists to the detriment of women actually makes your case much stronger.

Although then opens us up to misdirection and jarndynce and jarndyce problems.

I HATE people who play 'devils advocate'. It's so fucking arrogant and condescending, to take a position, and then abandon it and pretend they were only holding it to help YOU out, as though you needed their help to figure out what you think. My husband used to do it to;

Me: (normal and generally accepted political view)
Husband: Yeh, but what about (stupid opinion)
Me: What? that makes no sense because X Y Z. Why would you think that?
Husband: Oh I don't think that. Other people think that.
Me: Why are you telling me what fuckwits I've never met might think? I don't care about them. I was talking to YOU. Why are you bringing a hypothetical 3rd party dipshit into our conversation? I didn't invite that guy.
Husband: I was playing devils advocate.
Me: You were playing 'waste my time by getting me to explain shit you already know'. You wanted an argument where we're on opposing sides? Congratulations you've got one! Let me show you what you've won...

He doesn't really do it so much anymore :)

Honestly, I think 90% of the time when people say they're "playing the devils advocate" they're voicing their own opinion but they just don't want to be called on to defend it or explain it.

Like "Devils advocate; what if black people just ARE inferior, wouldn't it make sense for white people to be the ones to make decisions for their lives?" Just come out and admit that you want to own slaves you gutless fuck. Don't hide behind the pretense that other people need your help figuring out why slave owning is bad.

The other 10% of the time the agree with you but they're just bored and want to waste your time entertaining them with a pointless argument.

What people really don't like is when you put a devils advocate on a devils advocate (like a draw 4 on a draw 4). Suddenly that shit's not fair or hypothetical.

Guy: Devils advocate: what if women are just naturally more suited for housework and child rearing?
Me: Devils advocate: what if you're voicing that stance as a 'devils advocate' one because you're a straight up misogynist whose too much of a coward to admit it? I mean as long as we're discussing view points we don't necessarily agree with I want to start with that one.

Nope, apparently that's not hypothetical enough. Apparently I'm a massive bitch.

xkcd.com/1432/

Guy: Devils advocate: what if women are just naturally more suited for housework and child rearing?
Me: Devils advocate: what if you're voicing that stance as a 'devils advocate' one because you're a straight up misogynist whose too much of a coward to admit it?

I love this. Will use.

Blood the comic is marvellous. 'Why would you articulate something you think is wrong, just for the sake of having an argument?'

OP I feel your pain. I often reply somewhat exasperated “HAVE THE BALLS TO SAY WHAT YOU REALLY THINK AND STAND BY IT!”

Obviously being a feminist I don’t like the phrase “have the balls” but sometimes it facilitates understanding to speak in the vernacular of the offender who is invariably male and buys into all that “testicles equals bravery” crap.

But you’re right, for them it’s intellectual. For us it’s real. No one ever discusses the suitability of working husbands to be good dads, or the idea that white men lie just to get attention.

He sounds like an arse. I agree with others- do not rise to it. If he does it, maybe say something like "well, it seems that we have very opposite views on this issue. It's probably not something we are likely to agree on." If he says "no, I'm just playing devil's advocate", look at him in confusion and say "so hang on, you don't actually believe the argument you just made? What do you believe then? It's probably more constructive if you say what you actually think."

Also, maybe dump him.... He doesn't really sound like he has any respect for you. At least threaten to dump him if he doesn't stop this shit. Surely he can work out what to say to his friends in arguments without some idiotic role-play with you? Also, only dickheads tend to have racist, sexist friends in large numbers.

In my opinion when someone claims they are playing the devils advocate, they are actually people with an inferiority complex regarding their intellectual abilities, but they think they are demonstrating their intelligence and quick mind and wit, with conversational ping pong. But they are not. It’s so frustrating talking with someone who behaves like this. In fact, people like this make me cringe. Just say what you mean, state your real opinion!!!

Does he know this upsets you.
If so he’s just winding you up and I’d be inclined to tell him to fuck off.

Why would you waste your time answering his nasty little queries?

I know so many men who do this! Like they are doing you a favour.

I would ignore the devils advocate bit and probe him on what he is saying, question his thoughts and opinions. Tell him your a grown up, if he wants to debate he needs to state his own views, not hide behind a mask.

Next time he plays the DA card just say That's lovely, what do you think?

Send him here.

I cannot stand guys (and in my experience it has always been guys) who do this. The whole devils advocate thing is bollocks anyway, it always seems to be an opinion that they actually do hold but do not dare to admit they hold it.

LOL Bloodmagic, and thebewilderness.

Playing DA seems to be a form of real life trolling. Or maybe Sealioning.

@snettles just warn him, in all seriousness, that playing Devils Advocate will be bad for your relationship. If he keeps doing it you will be forced not to talk about things that are really important to you him. More to the point you may be forced to share the fact you and your DH can't talk about important stuff together with other people. This will make him look like prat.

Or you do the Devils Advocate with things that are important for him. But the trouble with that is that he may have few opinions he holds as strongly as you do, and so the danger is he will not be as upset as you are.

You could even put him on the back foot! "Devils advocate! Really? Prove to me this is not your opinion."