Anti-vaccination, women’s right and trans - an analogy?

[RealityHasALiberalBias]

A few weeks ago there was a thread asking for historical analogies to the trans activist phenomenon.

This morning, it occurred to me that there are parallels with the anti-vaccination movement. I am unfortunately very familiar with this movement as my sister is a fervent anti-vaxer.

The anti-vax movement has gained traction because of the modern, Western privilege of living in prosperous times where we don’t suffer regular epidemics of dangerous infectious diseases. This is largely as a result of decades of vaccination programmes. But the programmes are a victim of their own success - now that the current generation of parents has no memory or experience of these diseases, many of them see the vaccinations as unnecessary and / or dangerous.

Feminism has a very long way to go, but perhaps the current genderism is as result of femisms successes to date? Privileged, middle class young people who have not (yet) experienced the restrictions and dangers of the patriarchy widen the definition of trans to include anyone who doesn’t dress like Barbie or GI Joe. They see single sex safe spaces as wholly unnecessary, because they are privileged enough never to have needed them.

Like the anti-vax movement, there is a large number of well-meaning but misinformed people who sort-of subscribe to the ideology, while a small number of zealots with extreme views fan the flames online and in the media.

Like the anti-vax movement, science is of no concern whatsoever, except where a dodgy paper appears to bolster their position.

Like the anti-vax movement (and also climate deniers), the TRAs are able to influence the media to a degree completely out of proportion to their numbers, making the ideology seem far more widespread than it is.

Like the anti-vax movement, children are likely to be the most damaged victims of the craze.

Thoughts? I suppose the hope is that, like the anti-vax movement, the whole thing will blow over and be left to the cranks after a few years. Though of course there is still a lot of work to be done to restore vaccination rates to their previous levels.

You can separate out the two types of authority; authority regarding the science and authority over you as a patient.

HCPs cannot make you do anything and it is wise to accept they are likely to have a better understanding re the science but this may not apply to your own personal situation and you are entitled to both have an opinion (no matter whether reasonable or unreasonable) and you have the ultimate say.

Thank you Pratchett, you make your points so well.

GPs have been effectively silenced on of vaccination as they can be struck off for being vaccine-critical.

As for homeopathy, I live in a country where it is a significant part of health care and homeopathic doctors are taught in public universities with the same level of commitment in time and studies as required of an allopathic doctor. But if I talk to anyone from an English language country about any cures brought about by homeopathy, my experience is all written off with a jeering comment about placebo effect and bad science, just like the lady whose son was vaccine-damaged was told it didn't happen by a complete stranger.

For me, good science is witnessing a phenomenon and trying to understand it, not just repeating ad nauseum that the phenomemon does not exist.

So yes, there are parallels between the transgender problem and these health matters, such as homeopathy and being vaccine-critical, in that a serious discussion is not even permitted and people have been trained like Pavlov's dogs to bring out standard answers to complex issues.

GPs are disciplined for promoting their personal ideology through their work for the NHS. This is standard and for a very good reason- there are standards for care and expectations re service provision.

This happens re many things.

Even if you yourself happen to align with the GP’s personal view I’m not sure why you would want GPs to be given leeway to impose personal views on patients.

No GP can force you to vaccinate your DC. Some GPs and other HCPs may be rude to you regarding this and other issues if you go against convention but this is not acceptable either and you can complain about it.

GPs are disciplined for promoting their personal ideology through their work for the NHS. This is standard and for a very good reason- there are standards for care and expectations re service provision

Ok that is a very sensible policy and I have no quarrel with that.

The trouble is that a lot of people claim that all GPs are in favour of vaccination and use that to shut down arguments, alleging that anyone who is critical of vaccines is therefore anti-science and going against the experts.

Reality- not goading - but given the focus of your thread- do you have any thoughts about the responses and how different they were to what you were suggesting? As I said earlier, I think there are many people on both sides of the debate who from lived experience are questioning / not believing the safety of structures like medicine and research.
I do think these are the best structures we have but get that there are many who don’t.

Nope, they are exactly the responses - on all sides - that I would have expected had I given this five seconds’ thought.

I am just as comfortable in both my original positions as I ever was, thank you.

So if you’d given it five seconds thought you’d have realised there was quite a big overlap between those who are worried about trans issues and those who are worried about vaccinations. Did you have thoughts about why?

I know exactly why, having been round this merry-go-round hundreds of times, like I said.

It does not change my position one jot, as I am comfortable with my reasoning on both subjects. If new evidence comes to light on either subject, I may reconsider my position.

Also, two people on an unpopular thread hardly constitutes “quite a big overlap”, especially when there are a bunch of other people with views that match mine, plus you who falls between.

All it shows is my analogy was poor!

This also interests me. The people with one view want to debate are more measured (sound familiar?) while the people with the other view really do not want to debate, are NOPE and have the supreme confidence that their view must and will prevail. Also familiar.

I believe it's because the people on one side (TRA / pro universal vax) want everybody else to do something. The people on the other (feminists / pro vax choice) are quite happy for the other side to do their thing (dress up / vaccinate) - they just don't want to be forced to join in.

There is a parallel with TRA / anti vax when you are talking about campaigners who actually against all vaccinations, and want everyone else to join in with their view. This isn't (in my experience) the case for most parents of a questioning bent.

"science is of no concern whatsoever"

Which science - do you mean the basic grade school biology of XX = female and XY = male?

Or do you mean the advanced professional biologist level science where in you can be male because you were born female, but you have 5-alphareductase deficiency and so you grew a penis at age 12. You can be female because you have an X and a Y chromosome but you are insensitive to androgens, and so you have a female body. You can be female because you have an X and a Y chromosome but your Y is missing the SRY gene, and so you have a female body. You can be male because you have two X chromosomes, but one of your X's HAS an SRY gene, and so you have a male body. You can be male because you have two X chromosomes- but also a Y. You can be female because you have only one X chromosome at all.

"Like the anti-vax movement, children are likely to be the most damaged victims of the craze. "

The science is against you on this. Trans children who are supported in their transition thrive:

www.jaacap.org/article/S0890-8567%2816%2931941-4/fulltext

Which states:

These findings are in striking contrast to previous work with gender-nonconforming children who had not socially transitioned, which found very high rates of depression and anxiety.

So WAKAME, the sudden rise in transgenderism is because of a sudden rise in genetic defects?

Coy- no clearly its due to a rise in vaccinations...

Please stop using intersex people to justify TRA ideology. Intersex people are people not political footballs.

Wakame doesn't have a clue what he's talking about.

But he does cheer me up, which obviously I need because of my high levels of anxiety and depression

SoWAKAME, the sudden rise in transgenderism is because of a sudden rise in genetic defects?

No, it is, and always has been, incredibly difficult to tell the difference between men and women.

You might have thought that literally every single person on the planet could do it, at a glance, with almost unerring accuracy. My four year old think he can do it. But no, it's actually really hard. You need advanced degrees in all kinds of shit to even have a go at it.

It's a fucking wonder we ever managed to mate at all, let alone cop of with someone in a dark club at 3 a.m. after eight pints of Stella.

But there you are. Hugely difficult stuff.

Lol @ streets