The Physical Side of De-Transitioning (possible trigger warning)

[Terfing]

Possible trigger warning for those with dysmorphia.

Firstly, I hope it's okay to start a discussion on this subject. I am not trying to be goady, I am trying to learn.

I had a chat with my nurse friend today about the long term effects of taking hormones. She believes that if someone starts taking hormones during their teenage years, they may have to take them for life. Is this true? She wasn't 100%, but she did say that it would be dangerous to stop suddenly either way.

When I was 18, I really wanted a boob job. I used to cry myself to sleep over it. Luckily, I couldn't afford it and was rubbish at saving. I'm glad that was the case as I have since grown naturally into my body. It scares me to think that I might have had a life-changing operation unnecessarily! It also makes me sad that so many youngsters are being coached into doing this

Can we have a general, respectful, chat about this subject? I am interested in the hormone science especially.

Have you seen Crash Chaos Cats:
www.youtube.com/channel/UCW6W-xWXxmZZGQ8ZSrRfs-Q
crashchaoscats.tumblr.com

and Carey Callahan:
www.youtube.com/channel/UCAq3K9og-W3Hko8UzYxOpew

I was diagnosed with gyny cancer in my late 30s. As a consequence of the necessary radical hysterectomy, I had sudden surgical menopause. In order for me to take the lowest dose of oestrogen (Its called H R T for a reason), this required conversations between senior consultants, histology and that I also understood the potential risks. It is reviewed regularly.

There is so much that is still to understand about the risk/benefits associated with HRT for shorter periods of time where the hormone therapy is a direct replacement.

It really concerns me that what we do know about HRT seems rarely discussed or acknowledged.

I think hormone treatments are contraindicated for many medical conditions. I read somewhere that a prominent American TRA can't take them any more. Obviously this is the opposite problem to the one you mention but they certainly aren't without health effects.

What about the medical effect on the body of transitioning, let alone detransitioning.

The simple answer is that there is very little settled medical evidence. Hysterectomy for Transmen is recommended after a few years on testosterone so then you have a surgically induced menopause very early in life.

There are law suits ongoing in the US from biological men who took testosterone, so goodness knows what it will do to a biological female.

The Mayo Clinic often has basic useful info pages about medical issues.

Taking masculinizing hormones
www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/ftm-hormone-therapy/about/pac-20385099
Risks toward the bottom of the page. They don't list the risks involved in taking as a child or teenager, when the body is still developing.

Taking feminizing hormones
www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/mtf-hormone-therapy/about/pac-20385096

Obviously, there's a great deal more to be said about both of those issues.

Bottom line: taking hormones with an influence on every cell of the body is going to have long term consequences. (Um, yes, that does seem fairly obvious.

I always find it quite telling that you have to really justify and argue your case to get HRT for symptoms associated with a natural menopause (ca. 51 y), yet they're handing them out to male youngsters with apparent abandon.

Perhaps women don't deserve women's hormones.

I don't possess much medical knowledge but surely one's cancer risk goes up if you pump yourself full of cross-sex hormones?

A hysterectomy is such a huge surgery as well, surely? I can imagine a small proportion of women get quite significant side effects from that surgery alone.

Ditto sterilisation and hysterectomies Terfulike

Women in their 30s and 40s with gynae issues or complete families and issues with hormonal contraception are denied surgery pretty much daily, but the magic trans status means young women are afforded this autonomy. Makes me so angry.

A hysterectomy is such a huge surgery as well, surely? I can imagine a small proportion of women get quite significant side effects from that surgery alone.

Yes, quite a significant number.

Also for those women who are pre-menopause and are not able to have HRT (if for example they have had a cancer which is oestrogen driven) then they often have significant side-effects.

Indeed Terfulike, it took me over 2 years to persuade my GP to prescribe HRT for menopausal symptoms. Either I couldn't be trusted (?) or taking them during peri-menopause might be dangerous? I don't know, she wouldn't fully explain why. In any case it was a battle for a woman in her late 40's to obtain them.

Another example might be hair removal. A friend of mine with PCOS commented on her access to this compared with transwomens. Not sure of the details tbh. (?)

I think I'm just curious as to whether it's possible to fully detransition. Are you able to stop taking the hormones? Surely your body would become somewhat reliant upon them after a certain amount of time?

Also, what happens if you decide you no longer want the neo-vagina? From what I've read, they're a lot of work. Is there a way to reverse this?

I have read that if someone goes from puberty blockers > cross-sex hormones then their gonads (ovaries or testes) will never develop and they will never be fertile, but not sure if that also affects hormone production (I assume it does, but not 100% on that).

Anyone who has had their gonads removed will obviously have to take hormones for life because they have no way of producing them naturally.

Someone who develops naturally to adulthood and then takes cross-sex hormones and does not remove the gonads should be able to revert back to natural hormone production, this is how "trans men" get pregnant, they stop taking testosterone while trying to get pregnant and during the pregnancy.

And Terfulike there have been some issues in the USA where there are hormone shortages, mostly because so many males are transitioning that production can't keep up with demand.

This is the theory behind Big Pharma being the financial backers of transitioning, isn't it? Catch them in their teens and then they're 'hooked' on your product for life.

LInk to article discussing funding:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3260270-Michael-Biggs-Oxford-Sociology-dept-The-Open-Society-Foundations-the-transgender-movement-incl-comparison-with-funding-for-women

Speculative article here, but a thought-provoking read:

Who are the rich, white men institutionalizing transgender ideology?

thefederalist.com/2018/02/20/rich-white-men-institutionalizing-transgender-ideology/

Your nurse friend may be confusing types of hormones. I can’t see how suddenly stopping T or Oestrogen would be dangerous. Potentially really unpleasant side effects but not dangerous. I’m wondering if she’s thinking of suddenly stopping glucocorticoids (steroids) which can be dangerous.
In terms of access to healthcare there are certainly discrepancies. As mentioned up thread, women with hirsutism (excess/male ptttern hair growth) where I work are not entitled to NHS treatment whereas I believe transwomen are, though I’ve no direct experience of that. The issue with HRT is complex. Current thinking is that HRT is not associated with increased risk in women who have had premature (before 40) menopause, for whatever reason, until they reach average age of menopause (approx 51) as it is replacing what the “average” women would have been exposed to. After that risks are relatively small in appropriately selected groups (I.e no history of breast cancer etc) but use beyond 5yrs post menopause starts to increase risk. As far as I know there is limited data on the use of cross sex hormones but certainly risks of hormone dependent cancers is increased. I think in the past, the decision to use cross sex hormones has been made on the basis that if someone has such crippling dysphoria and they are the only treatment that may help then the increased risks may be acceptable. I suppose a lot of doctors (most?) have thought that typical menopausal symptoms experienced by most women are not generally severe enough to exceed the increased risks with long term (I.e over 5y post menopause) HRT use. Clearly there is a huge overlap between the lack of significance placed on symptoms experienced by menopausal women (and women in general) and tradional, paternalistic medicine. Hopefully this is changing as more women become doctors and certainly the focus when I started training 15 years ago was on shared patient management.

Re HRT and the menopause: to be fair to doctors, there were studies showing they increased the risk of various health problems, which is what doctors were going by. It's only quite recently that more studies have come out showing that actually the risks of taking HRT/not taking HRT balance out for most women. Too late for me, though!

there have been some issues in the USA where there are hormone shortages, mostly because so many males are transitioning that production can't keep up with demand

JFC.

Terfing
You may find some experiences and info re your OP via this Twitter link. It records a number of personal experiences of females who have detransitioned.

twitter.com/FtMdetransed?lang=en-gb

I took HRT, the lowest amount, after surgical menopause. To be honest, I didn't like it, just as I didn't like taking the pill. I felt I had to take medication to 'make' me 'feel womanly'. I was born a female and a lack of uterus and ovaries doesn't make me any less of XX.

I am woman.

Elandon
Post menopausal women, and presumably surgical menopause women, have widely varying symptoms, both in degree and type.
Some need the HRT others don't.

I actually dont think big pharma are a major pusher of this - the population pool isn’t big enough and the hormones themselves are not huge money spinners. Of course they may piggy back on it, but I’m not convinced this one can be laid at the door of pharma.

I see a serious backlash against women’s rights, financial crash, increasing ID politics and individualism, social media etc and a few other factors as being behind this. I think we talked about this one another thread?

The reality is that there is so little research on long term high dose hormone regimes. Imo you’d expect a host of cancers and metabolic issues. That’s before we even get into things like puberty blockers, such as Lupron, which have horrendous side effects.

There are going to be some severe health issues and lawsuits.