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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Stephanie Davies-Arai. Transgender Trend

95 replies

therealposieparker · 24/05/2018 12:54

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Baroquehavoc · 25/05/2018 07:14

I don't understand how Offred post could possibly break any guidelines.

It's not surprising that TRA and MRA would want it deleted, though.

WhatTheWaterShowedMe · 25/05/2018 07:18

I’m curious if anyone here who now has children of their own remembers wanting kids when they were a teen or tween. I know I didn’t, so if I’d been gender dysphoric and offered puberty blockers and hormones then I wouldn’t have cared about the impact on my facility. Wanting kids was something that came much later in life.

therealposieparker · 25/05/2018 07:18

Can we say trans women are men here?

Is nowhere safe to say the truth?

What if I say there is no God?

Vegetarians are all wankers?

Charlie Hebdo should rerun their controversial comic?

OP posts:
WhatTheWaterShowedMe · 25/05/2018 07:19

*fertility, obviously Confused

DisturblinglyOrangeScrambleEgg · 25/05/2018 07:23

Those who do have that professional training, qualifications, expertise and experience, and the professional organisations that represent them almost unanimously regard the Transgender Trend approach as "unethical".

I'm willing to be educated - do you have some links for this?

I've seen the serious effects of the drugs being justified by the risk of suicide, but I've only seen 'watch and wait' being recommended by places like the Tavistock as the favoured route

Offred · 25/05/2018 07:25

Well yeah, but I didn’t make any comment regarding trans anyone. What I did do was point out that ‘not being allowed an opinion because you don’t have lived experience’ should be being applied consistently by the people who believe it and are asserting it on this thread.

I am not one of those people, I think it’s a really stupid belief.

Hence my now deleted comment....

Sarahconnor1 · 25/05/2018 07:29

offreds post merely pointed out the hypocrisy of the argument. Either lived experience matters or it doesn't and that should be applied equally.

I'm guessing that made the TRAs uncomfortable, but it's a perfectly valid point to make and we should be able to raise these questions without being deleted.

WhatTheWaterShowedMe · 25/05/2018 07:39

@therealposieparker at the end of the video you mentioned talking to your children’s school about this- can I ask how you approach them? I’d like to do the same- would be requesting their policies on LGBT children and finding out what’s in their PSE syllabus a good start?

WhatTheWaterShowedMe · 25/05/2018 07:40

@MumsnetHQ please reinstate @Offred’s original comment. It was not hateful in the slightest and she made an excellent point.

Offred · 25/05/2018 07:48

Meh... I kind of think it says more that it has been deleted TBH....

SuburbanRhonda · 25/05/2018 08:06

The problem is that a phrase that should carry no ambiguity is now open to interpretation.

Remember Corbyn on Andrew Marr saying the “lived experience” of TIMs was enough to qualify them for inclusion as women on an AWS?

CharlieParley · 25/05/2018 13:44

Yes. A whole four-day course in "communicating with children". Of course that trumps all those people with years of study at medical college, CPD, and clinical experience, who describe her methods as "unethical".

That's curious Damnthatone as both the head of Tavistock and a number of doctors working in the UK's GID children's clinics and GID experts abroad have publicly praised both Stephanie's book and/or her website as an excellent resource, even pointing parents of GD kids towards them.

So, who exactly outside of Mermaids and such like (I mean actual professionals with that much vaunted experience and not lobbyists or TRAs) are you speaking of? And once you find the professionals (and it would surprise me greatly if you couldn't find them as doctors are a notoriously disunited bunch) what makes those professionals' opinion more valid than the ones who do praise Stephanie's work? (Other than that their POV aligns with yours.)

Fact is, a number of international experts with longstanding professional experience in treating children with gender dysphoria issued a joint public statement not so long ago that there is no evidence - I repeat - no evidence that the instant affirmation approach leads to better outcomes than the tried and tested wait and see approach used everywhere until very recently.

They have therefore urged all who treat such kids to be cautious and to remember that their job includes making sure no one comes to iatrogenic harm.

LangCleg · 25/05/2018 14:51

Since all the trans lobby groups' guidance recommends confidential disclosures by minors - safeguarding 101 that this *never happens, for crissakes - I would regard anything else recommended by said organisations as unreliable.

TransplantsArePlants · 25/05/2018 16:18

Offred

I can believe that was deleted. It just made too much damn sense.

Starkstaring · 25/05/2018 16:34

This is the document I referred to above - it was produced as part of the consultation for the specification policy for gender identity services.

www.engage.england.nhs.uk/consultation/specialised-services-consultation/user_uploads/gendr-ident-policy.pdf

I think it would be hard to argue that this was not the product of experts. I have picked out a few phrases here - despite the poor evidence, somehow gender reassignment is "deemed" to have good outcomes - but I really can't find a lot of evidence to back this up here.

From section 5, evidence base:
"The evidence base for treatment of gender dysphoria is largely comprised of low- graded (with respect to “level of evidence” scoring systems) papers"

"Studies appear to suggest a positive impact of treatment on gender dysphoria, psychological status, sexual functioning and quality of life. Mortality from suicides seems to be high despite treatment. However, the quality of evidence which these findings are based is low, and in some instances there are conflicting results."

"Overall, there is only limited evidence to demonstrate the efficacy of hormonal therapy or gender reassignment surgery with regard to long-term complications or physical functional status. "

"Quality of life scores for transsexual patients were the same or better than those of control patients for some subscales (emotions, sleep, incontinence, symptom severity, and role limitation), but worse in other domains (general health, physical limitation, and personal limitation). "

"It is difficult to determine the effectiveness of hormones alone in the relief of gender dysphoria"

"There is, to date, only limited outcome evidence for the treatment of gender dysphoria. In addition, such evidence of efficacy and treatment satisfaction that is available is generally of a low level"

"With respect to drug therapy, there are substantial variations in current UK prescribing practice and inadequate evidence or even consensus to agree what constitutes “best practice"

"One troubling report (Newfield et al., 2006) documented lower scores on quality of life (measured with the SF-36) for FtM patients than for the general population"

Yes, if a person is utterly miserable and suicidal, all these risks will be as nothing. However, that does not make good basis for celebrating and applauding a teenager's coming out as trangender as we are being asked to do. It must be the first priority to help and support that child to come to terms with their own body, (the one they were born in) and to be as gender non-conforming as they want. If that includes changing pronouns and name - personally I don't care if it works - but avoiding unknown harms from avoidable medical intervention - yes please!

SuitedandBooted · 25/05/2018 16:37

"Lupron is safe, and reversible" they say - Oh really?

Screen grab is taken form this account. This man is a fully qualified endocrinologist, so he just MIGHT know more than Mermaids.

twitter.com/MLaidlawMD

Stephanie Davies-Arai.  Transgender Trend
LangCleg · 25/05/2018 16:46

Starkstaring - thanks very much for going to the bother of looking that up.

Bowlofbabelfish · 25/05/2018 16:53

Not quite as "unknown as you seem to be suggesting, but the research is on-going.*

There’s quite a bit of work on them in adults - they are used for prostate treatment for example. Some of the side effects, of these ‘harmless’ drugs:

Sterility
Lack of pubertal passage = lacknof sexual development, these kids just will never have a sex life.
Osteoporosis
Cognitive dysfunction equivalent to an 8 point drop in average
Metabolic disturbances - in fat metabolism, distribution etc.
Possible link from the above to diabetes

They’re very damaging. Since 80% of children who identify as trans desist there is no justification for medicating at all

I’m also extremely disturbed at what is effectively creating a cohort of sterile, perma-children.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 25/05/2018 16:54

YY. Starkstaring, that's such a useful resource. Thank you so much for bothering.

Beamur · 25/05/2018 16:56

I will watch this later.
My daughter is in Y6 at school, I've asked her teacher what they are covering in PSE next term. The answer given hasn't concerned me.
However, my daughter has come home from school this week having been asked to fill in an (anonymous) questionnaire from the Local Authority. This included questions about gender identity and sexual orientation. The children being asked to fill this in are 10 and 11 years old.
Some of them did not understand what they were being asked.
I have taken this up with the teacher (who I think was quite taken aback by these questions, they were not in the questions last year apparently). I've asked to see what training has been provided to teachers on this issue and whom it has been provided by. I've read the schools published policies and have no problem with what they are saying.
It may be helpful for parents to start asking these questions of their local schools to find out just what teachers are being advised. DD's school has Stonewall accreditation too.

Bowlofbabelfish · 25/05/2018 16:58

I think that Lupron will be this generation of children's thalidomide.

I agree wholeheartedly. I work now in clinical trials and the barrier for treating kids with new drugs is so, so high. The consent procedures are governed by really rigorous laws (as they should be.) paediatric trials of anything, even something lifesaving like new combinations of cancer treatments are fraught with ethical difficulties.

I cannot think of a single other circumstance where such powerful drugs are given with such lax frameworks. I’m staggered it’s haplening and I do wonder who is pushing this agenda and why - it is going to be a massive scandal. Those poor, poor kids.

R0wantrees · 25/05/2018 18:52

Bowlofbabelfish
Michael K. Laidlow MD has linked a reference from the Endocrine Society 'New research in #JES shows that androgen deprivation therapy can "result in electrophysical changes in the heart".'

He has commented:
"So the puberty blocker lupron has been found to be associated with electrical changes in the heart which "might explain the increased risk of sudden cardiac death seen in these [prostate cancer] patients". And we're going to keep giving this to otherwise healthy adolescents?"
twitter.com/MLaidlawMD/status/999644654088826880

I understand that Laidlow wrote the article discussed on this thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/lgbt_children/3221502-I-am-Jazz-critique-by-an-endocrinologist

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 25/05/2018 20:01

Offred how weird they deleted your comment but not my comment which quotes your comment..... very strange. There's nothing wrong with your comment - it no way does it break talk guidelines & it's a really good point. Come on @mumsnethq - if you don't reinstate it suggests you're simply deleting posts that someone has complained about.

Not liking what someone says isn't a good enough reason to stop them from speaking. I thought free speech was allowed here (within talk guidelines)?

thebewilderness · 25/05/2018 20:34

I thought free speech was allowed here (within talk guidelines)?

Only for potatoes. Not Feminists.

IsHalfTermOverYet · 25/05/2018 22:53

This is an excellent video. Very clear and informative for anyone new to this subject. Thank you to Stephanie and Posie.

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