Breast Binding

[womanformallyknownaswoman]

I find the practice of breast binding so abhorrent.

Breast binding is the act of flattening breasts by the use of constrictive materials. The term also refers to the material used in this act. Common binding materials include cloth strips, elastic or non-elastic bandages, purpose-built undergarments (often using Spandex or other synthetic fibre) and shirts layered from tight to loose. The act of breast binding is common for trans men, but is also done by androgynous, genderqueer and gender fluid people, as well as crossdressers and performers.
Breast binding by use of cloth strip or tape may result in bodily damage such as permanent deformation of the breast.

I am repulsed that this is somehow being normalised. I read the extract below from the blog of the fantastic Renee G in NZ. How widespread is it in the UK and elsewhere, and at what age is it being put into practice? Is it in schools yet?

Lesbian women are already suffering from ideas gaining traction that gender non-conformity might make them male. I know several young women who struggle with the popular undermining of female only same-sex attraction in a new age of “male lesbians”. This is not hysteria, but one real and devastating consequence of attempts to radically redefine sex.

RainbowYouth has been distributing breast binders in schools, ostensibly for born “transmen” – but we know teenage girls suffer discomfort with their bodies in this climate of objectification we live in. Consider Northland teenager Zahra Cooper, a young lesbian who was put on a course of testosterone that permanently altered her body and voice before she recognised she is inalterably female.

Ah Terf -

When you said "This thread is about breast binding, which is a particular form of self harm resulting from gender dysphoria" I thought that you meant that was the only reason.

I think that there are other reasons which are probably more common but have seen you think so too so there's no disagreement.

I wouldn't agree that all the girls who bind though as dysphoric - whether gender or the more minor body dysphoria you mention.

I think that girls trying to hide their developing bodies is an understandable reaction to the way society views girls once their bodies start to look more adult & especially the sudden interest from men which lots of girls find disconcerting and hard to deal with.It bothers me that this link is not being made between the high levels of distress amongst teenage girls, and the fact that they are the fastest growing group of referrals to gender clinics. The question around why trying to opt out of being female is so appealing, is not being asked. A lot of old school feminists can provide some pointers but we have been deemed irrelevant / out of fashion / evil.

Society has always preferred to look the other way when it's teenage girls who are struggling.

Sardine

I completely and utterly get what you are saying. I was the tallest girl in my year. I'll never forget the shame in year 7 when a boy laughed in a crowded playground that I needed a bra.

When men reacted to me, in exactly the ways that you describe, when I was 13/14 what else am I to describe it as other than dysphoria of the body? My dad raised me as a pretend boy and called me a male name. He wanted a boy after two girls. I would have been another easy target for Mermaids.

'Ah Terf', you say. You are mocking me. I've been mocked all my life. Because I am different. I was only saying what I thought and felt. Evidently I should zip up and do one.

sardine

Great insights re teenage girl distress and how it is ignored and ridden rough shod over by men and vested interests whilst trashing those who have insight and support - older women

Good morning and good summary sardine.

I'd like to apologise to boat as I think I over interpreted her comments and went off on one after watching a video. I'm very sorry about that boat.

On a lighter note, it was a wonderful thing to become a breastfeeding mother (apart from the initial difficulties of course).

I wonder if teenage girls could be given a lot more information about that particular function of their breasts. To show them that their breasts can be a source of such usefulness, joy and pride: how completely a nursing baby depends upon them for nourishment, not to mention the key role of breastfeeding in developing the first relationship a baby has with another human being (obviously this goes for bottle feeding too but I'm trying to encourage girls to respect their breasts here).

I suppose if you gave girls talks about the wonders of breastfeeding it would be seen (perhaps rightly) as encouraging early pregnancy and discouraging career-type pursuits. You can easily spend 5 -10 years of your life as a nursing mother, and it does often have an impact on your career. Much more should be done to even things out for mothers in the workplace regarding this.

Anyway, my main point here is that the sexual aspect of women's breasts is the only angle teenage girls get exposed to really. If this was balanced with information about breastfeeding then maybe it would help girls to appreciate their breasts a bit, and make them less likely to be dysphoric about them - whether that dysphoria arises from awareness of inappropriate male oggling (most/all young women) or simple hatred of one's femaleness (true gender dysphoria as opposed to rapid onset).

It certainly seems like rapid onset, including breast binding, is simply an extreme reaction to the porn culture and high demands placed on girls for a feminine hypersexualised appearance.

No problem Terf. Posts written on the fly are ripe for alternative readings and we wouldn’t have had Fermat’s excellent summation without the misunderstanding. Peace ‘n’ love and all that jazz.

This study reported on the negative health effects of breast binding.

www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13691058.2016.1191675

It is paywalled and I don't have access to the full study, but the following link has some more details.

janitorqueer.com/2016/06/21/28-risks-of-chest-binding/

There's also the fact that bras are (to some women) horrifically uncomfortable. How many memes and jokes are there about the relief of taking your bra off when you get home? I have properly fitted bras and they're still uncomfortable in comparison to no bra!

I would not wear shoes that are uncomfortable and yet to go braless is considered inappropriate with my breast size and job. I have to spend circa £50 per bra to stock up on the one brand of sports bra which is actually bearable to wear all day.

The huge increase in girls seeking help regarding change of gender would suggest that this chest binding is at least mostly about transitioning.

"Reports from the United Kingdom of huge spikes in the rate of child referrals to transing centers also show far more girls than ever before. The most recent of these papers from the UK suggests that from 2009-2016, the average year-on-year increase in referrals for children under age 12 was “only” 48.6% for boys, while it was 92.7% for girls; in adolescents the corresponding rates were 54.9% and 88.6%." 4thwavenow.com/2018/05/05/detransitioned-man-blasts-transworld/

@aurorafloyd I would not wear shoes that are uncomfortable and yet to go braless is considered inappropriate with my breast size and job.

That's awful. Why are people looking at your boobs at work, I wonder? Maybe they shouldn't pay so much attention to them?

One of the things I like about my job is the casual dress code and no need to wear a bra. I usually don't, or at most wear one of those Belvia soft things in case I need to run for my train. Something I have noticed is that, even though I have something ludicrous like HH cups, after not wearing a bra for a few weeks I can walk around and use stairs comfortably as long as I don't run.

I also couldn't get away with not wearing a bra for work, it would be unthinkable TBH.

I also think that if I went out in public without a bra I would get a lot of staring / weird looks / comments. I mean it's just not done is it, if you have larger breasts. Bras are both sexist and ageist, at my age one of the functions they perform is to pretend that my tits live somewhere up around my chin. With it off - they live somewhere around the waist region and I struggle to imagine that people wouldn't be a bit gobsmacked if I started wandering around with them lowslung and untethered...

It is good you are able to do this though. I must admit I find it super hard to imagine - and I wouldn't fancy trying it myself. Even though I find them fucking uncomfortable.

"The huge increase in girls seeking help regarding change of gender would suggest that this chest binding is at least mostly about transitioning."

Disagree.

Girls often don't explicitly make the link between the way they are treated and their desire to hide their bodies / change their bodies.

All they know is they hate their size / shape / breasts / whatever and don't want them any more. So, eating dosorders, binders, I must really be a boy (as everyone knows how proper girls look and behave and that's not me).

For sure some girls will have gender dysphoria - if that means an intense feeling of hatred towards their sexed body and a knowledge heartfelt that they should be a man - but for most of them, it won't be that. It just won't.

It is well known the issues girls have around their bodies, the expectations due to their sex, the way they are treated, seen as sex objects. It's a very unpleasant process turning from person (child) to sex object. Obviously girls attempt to navigate this any way they can. Saying "I'm not a girl" is a very sensible solution in a society which is often pretty unpleasant for girls.

Terf I wasn't trying to take teh mickey I was trying to say I had misunderstood you.

Seems to be we all got a bit at cross purposes yesterday.

@sardinereturns

The first time I went without a bra, I was terrified, but I'd been in work all day with it on and it was causing so much pain in my armpits (why do bra makers think my breasts start almost behind my armpits and make underwires that stab me?) that I took it off. I was really nervous going to the male-dominated social event I was heading to after work, but no one said a word and I caught no one leering. So, a few days later, I tried taking my bra to work in my bag as a safety net. Again, no one said anything and no one leered. After a while, I binned the bra.

YMMV, but it might be worth a try, even just going around the supermarket or something. Take your bra in your bag so you can nip to the loos and wear a lightweight scarf hanging over them.

I don't think people would leer. I really don't.

i think they'd be horrified.

I've had more than one female friend tell me when they think my bra fit / size / silhouette is sub-optimal.

I know that the men I work with wouldn't know where to look if I bibbled into teh office with my tits swinging (comfortably) round my waist, bouncing about and with my nips in all their not-as-small-as-before-BF glory

I am very pleased that you are able to do this but no fucking way will I be giving it a go!

I'd be interested to hear if others on the thread - especially the larger of breast / older - would feel comfy doing this.

SardineReturns gosh no. I'm only a G cup/FF cup depending on how much I want to torture myself and I wouldn't go braless. I've nursed three babies and my boobs just ain't what they used to be...

I do often take my bra off at some point in the late afternoon/early evening when it gets too sore which always earns me a raised eyebrow from my DSs/DH. Even though I don't show an inch of flesh when I do it. I like to think that they all know by now that boobs can be a pain but who knows...

I was a teen with small breasts btw but still hid them. If I'd known of breast binders back then, I'd have worn one. I wanted no attention from men. None. Still got it though which I hated. And I wouldn't have believed anyone who told me they would or could damage my body.

P.S. I worked for a bra lady for a while. Even properly fitted bras get sore because of the way they are made. All of this fucking tech in my life and no one has mastered the art of fully supporting breasts without pain.

bd67th - if your bra wires are stabbing you in the armpit, get thee over to the bra intervention thread and find your proper fit. Sounds like your band size is too big

I'm wondering if this is perhaps an increasing problem due to the sharp reduction in the age of puberty.

In 1860, the average age of the onset of puberty in girls was 16.6 years. In 1920, it was 14.6; in 1950, 13.1; 1980, 12.5; and in 2010, it had dropped to 10.5.

Could this mean that a larger percentage of girls are not emotionally and mentally ready to develop breasts, because they are too young, and still feel like children?

That's certainly how I felt, kesstrel, If I'd known binders were an option, I would've done everything possible to get my hands on one, and worn it whenever I could get away with it.

I think you must be right, kesstrel

kesstrel

Really not sure about that

Developing breasts (and getting pubic hair and all the rest of it) obviously is a change and I was quite sad when my daughter started her periods at just 10 as they are a pain in the neck and it feels so early

The breasts thing though is specifically about it being an external sign that the girl is "growing up" and the discomfort is about the reaction of others especially men. I don't think that it's anything to do with physical or emotional maturity it's to do with not wanting people staring at your chest. Breasts are fetishised in our society and a large amount of men don't bother with context , if they see tits then she's "old enough". Not necessarily to do anything extreme but girls notice the unsubtl eyeing, and of course any comments and so on. I wasn't comfortable with men treating me like a sex object at 12 or 15 or 20 or 30.

So, not really sure about that.

Also 16? Wow! Was this global? That's mind boggling. A lot of it is down to improved nutritition, it could have been up and down over milennia!

In 1860, the average age of the onset of puberty in girls was 16.6 years. In 1920, it was 14.6; in 1950, 13.1; 1980, 12.5; and in 2010, it had dropped to 10.5.

Way back when, this was the topic of my first ever A level Sociology lesson! It combines with the average age of women's first marriage in the 1600s in England being mid-twenties. Of course, we all thought there were gazillions of child brides - failing to realise that child brides were simply part of property and power alliance agreements at the very top of society (royals and nobles).

I'll never forget that lesson even though it was thirty-plus years ago. It was such an eye-opener.

The huge reduction in the age of puberty onset is huge and concerning - 10 years old is very young for girls to be expected to deal with issues concerning sexuality etc

Has any research been conducted into the causes? How is this reduction catered for in schools and NHS etc by firstly acknowledgement of the issue and secondly the provision of appropriate extra support for girls - so many questions - thx for the information and insight

I think Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria has a big part to play in this.

www.parentsofrogdkids.com/

The social contagion is a big part of it.

I've heard that there can be three factors that often contribute to girls wanting to be boys - those who are lesbian or bi, those on the autistic spectrum, and I know from reading a bit about this some girls have experienced sexual abuse or assault.

I had not thought of the age of puberty being a part of it too. I wonder if this is documented anywhere?

Uh...I wear a binder because I identify as non-binary and it makes me feel a lot better in my body until I can afford a masectomy.