Male entitlement at a bar

[villandrychat]

I've been mulling over this event since it happened on Friday and wondered what other people thought.
I was out for after work drinks with some girlfriends on Friday, ranging in age from mid 40s to mid 50s. We were having a great time, when some random bloke came over and started trying to chat us up. He sat next to me and draped his arm round me, which I pointedly removed. He proceeded to hog the conversation, and started off telling us an "amusing" story (his definition of it). He was blocking my way out and I was needing the loo. I asked to get past him, and he said just listen to the end of this, it's good (so good I can't even remember what it was ). I was desperate (middle-aged bladder!) and asked him a further two times, and he said, no, you just sit here until I've finished telling you this. At this point I lost it, and said I'd already asked him three times, so if he didn't get the fuck out of my way right now, I was going to get security to kick him out. He very huffily moved, and I squeezed past him. I was so angry that he thought he could just override my requests like that, his sheer entitlement made me furious. And the fact that people seem to put up with men like him. I feel like I've overreacted, but part of me felt like punching him! It made me realise why I hate bars - I put up with so much shit like this as a teen/20s, and I'm now a menopausal angry woman who won't take shit from anyone!

[jellyfrizz]

Good article on this, in the 'Men' section interestingly:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/31/men-victorians-women-harassed-public-etiquette

The comments are fun, lots of NAMALTing and feminazi type comments but lots that get it.

[jellyfrizz]

This: www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/may/29/its-only-a-beer-the-unwritten-contracts-between-men-and-women

gave me a lot to think about too.

[OhGrrr]

Had a few experiences of this recently.

From repeatedly telling more than man "don't touch me" whilst on the dance floor to having a man who wanted to talk to me follow me around; glare at other men who spoke to me; demand to know what he had done wrong to mean I wanted to speak to these other men but not him; and insist he'd done nothing wrong and didn't deserve the treatment I was giving him. I just repeated "I have asked you to leave me alone. I would like you to leave me alone now like a stuck record until another man came over and said, "come on mate, leave her alone, she's asked you enough times now". At which point he went...

There is a comment following that article that women need to be clearer and more direct with their rebuffs because men are clearly missing the more subtle social cues.

I'm never 'subtle'. These men are perfectly capable of understanding that we are rejecting/rebuffing/refusing them. They just don't recognise that we have the right to do that.

[SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius]

With regard to NAMALT - yes, I accept that not all men are like this - but how many of the not-like-this ones have either failed to notice when another man is harassing a woman or have noticed but decided that it is 'not that serious', and have done nothing about it?

On one hand, of course it shouldn't take another man intervening, to make the harassers back off, but on the other hand, if the decent men took a stand against this sort of harassment, they could change the macho culture that says this sort of thing is OK. I don't think women can change it on our own - men have to want it to change too.

[LouiseCollins28]

@SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius
OK.... and so the minute one of the "not-all-like-this" men intervenes he'll get accused of being patronizing/a sexist.

Seen on other threads elsewhere about "why people don't intervene" into all sorts of things.

[SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius]

I guess you'd have to decide which was the lesser of two evils, @LouiseCollins28 - men turning a blind eye to this sort of thing, and letting other men carry on thinking this is OK, or men intervening, but looking sexist or patronising. I'd choose the latter, but can understand why people would object to it.

[OhGrrr]

but how many of the not-like-this ones have either failed to notice when another man is harassing a woman or have noticed but decided that it is 'not that serious', and have done nothing about it?

OK.... and so the minute one of the "not-all-like-this" men intervenes he'll get accused of being patronizing/a sexist

Have to say, I have had men step in. I think it depends how they do it.

When the man stepped in with the man I mentioned above, he put his arm in front of the guy and directed all his speech to him. "Come on mate, leave her alone. She's asked you enough times." was clearly reinforcing what I was saying rather than taking it upon himself to just intervene.

I've previously had it where a man was harrassing me on a small dance floor at a small club I'd never been to before. I was handling it but it wasn't pleasant. I went to the bar and another man approached me and just said, "We can all see you know. We're watching. You're handling it so we'll leave you to it but, if you need us, just give me the nod". I quite liked that because it wasn't sexist or patronising and I was handling it just fine. But it was good to know they were there. Alhough, I do get that the man wasn't receiving the message from other men that it was unacceptable.

That is how men should be handling it.

Either by reinforcing what women say or allowing women to handle it when they are but offering back up.

I would not appreciate it if a man just waded in heavy handedly and decided to challenge a man on my behalf. Unless I was actually being attacked!

[OhGrrr]

I had a man tell me recently that I was like "a little doll". Now that's patronising and sexist!

But a 6'3 bloke approaching another 6'3 bloke who is harrassing a 5'3 woman isn't patronising or sexist in my view.

[TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole]

That reminds me @LaSqrrl, back in my uni days of the guy who told me he shoots blanks and his wife doesn't mind if he plays around.

I have been 'chatted up' with some of the most ridiculous lines. The most dodgy and weird one I think was likely the random guy who strutted his way over to me (arms way out too..like he was carrying a keg under each armpit or something) and announced 'I have a hardon' with an expectant look on his face. Then just kind of stood there waiting for an answer. Like, I don't know what reply he wanted, but from the look on his face the correct response was not to laugh in his face, then tell the barman (loudly) of the 'chat up line'