Male entitlement at a bar

[villandrychat]

I've been mulling over this event since it happened on Friday and wondered what other people thought.
I was out for after work drinks with some girlfriends on Friday, ranging in age from mid 40s to mid 50s. We were having a great time, when some random bloke came over and started trying to chat us up. He sat next to me and draped his arm round me, which I pointedly removed. He proceeded to hog the conversation, and started off telling us an "amusing" story (his definition of it). He was blocking my way out and I was needing the loo. I asked to get past him, and he said just listen to the end of this, it's good (so good I can't even remember what it was ). I was desperate (middle-aged bladder!) and asked him a further two times, and he said, no, you just sit here until I've finished telling you this. At this point I lost it, and said I'd already asked him three times, so if he didn't get the fuck out of my way right now, I was going to get security to kick him out. He very huffily moved, and I squeezed past him. I was so angry that he thought he could just override my requests like that, his sheer entitlement made me furious. And the fact that people seem to put up with men like him. I feel like I've overreacted, but part of me felt like punching him! It made me realise why I hate bars - I put up with so much shit like this as a teen/20s, and I'm now a menopausal angry woman who won't take shit from anyone!

[TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole]

That reminds me @LaSqrrl, back in my uni days of the guy who told me he shoots blanks and his wife doesn't mind if he plays around.

I have been 'chatted up' with some of the most ridiculous lines. The most dodgy and weird one I think was likely the random guy who strutted his way over to me (arms way out too..like he was carrying a keg under each armpit or something) and announced 'I have a hardon' with an expectant look on his face. Then just kind of stood there waiting for an answer. Like, I don't know what reply he wanted, but from the look on his face the correct response was not to laugh in his face, then tell the barman (loudly) of the 'chat up line'

[OhGrrr]

I had a man tell me recently that I was like "a little doll". Now that's patronising and sexist!

But a 6'3 bloke approaching another 6'3 bloke who is harrassing a 5'3 woman isn't patronising or sexist in my view.

[OhGrrr]

but how many of the not-like-this ones have either failed to notice when another man is harassing a woman or have noticed but decided that it is 'not that serious', and have done nothing about it?

OK.... and so the minute one of the "not-all-like-this" men intervenes he'll get accused of being patronizing/a sexist

Have to say, I have had men step in. I think it depends how they do it.

When the man stepped in with the man I mentioned above, he put his arm in front of the guy and directed all his speech to him. "Come on mate, leave her alone. She's asked you enough times." was clearly reinforcing what I was saying rather than taking it upon himself to just intervene.

I've previously had it where a man was harrassing me on a small dance floor at a small club I'd never been to before. I was handling it but it wasn't pleasant. I went to the bar and another man approached me and just said, "We can all see you know. We're watching. You're handling it so we'll leave you to it but, if you need us, just give me the nod". I quite liked that because it wasn't sexist or patronising and I was handling it just fine. But it was good to know they were there. Alhough, I do get that the man wasn't receiving the message from other men that it was unacceptable.

That is how men should be handling it.

Either by reinforcing what women say or allowing women to handle it when they are but offering back up.

I would not appreciate it if a man just waded in heavy handedly and decided to challenge a man on my behalf. Unless I was actually being attacked!

[SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius]

I guess you'd have to decide which was the lesser of two evils, @LouiseCollins28 - men turning a blind eye to this sort of thing, and letting other men carry on thinking this is OK, or men intervening, but looking sexist or patronising. I'd choose the latter, but can understand why people would object to it.

[LouiseCollins28]

@SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius
OK.... and so the minute one of the "not-all-like-this" men intervenes he'll get accused of being patronizing/a sexist.

Seen on other threads elsewhere about "why people don't intervene" into all sorts of things.

[SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius]

With regard to NAMALT - yes, I accept that not all men are like this - but how many of the not-like-this ones have either failed to notice when another man is harassing a woman or have noticed but decided that it is 'not that serious', and have done nothing about it?

On one hand, of course it shouldn't take another man intervening, to make the harassers back off, but on the other hand, if the decent men took a stand against this sort of harassment, they could change the macho culture that says this sort of thing is OK. I don't think women can change it on our own - men have to want it to change too.

[OhGrrr]

Had a few experiences of this recently.

From repeatedly telling more than man "don't touch me" whilst on the dance floor to having a man who wanted to talk to me follow me around; glare at other men who spoke to me; demand to know what he had done wrong to mean I wanted to speak to these other men but not him; and insist he'd done nothing wrong and didn't deserve the treatment I was giving him. I just repeated "I have asked you to leave me alone. I would like you to leave me alone now like a stuck record until another man came over and said, "come on mate, leave her alone, she's asked you enough times now". At which point he went...

There is a comment following that article that women need to be clearer and more direct with their rebuffs because men are clearly missing the more subtle social cues.

I'm never 'subtle'. These men are perfectly capable of understanding that we are rejecting/rebuffing/refusing them. They just don't recognise that we have the right to do that.

[jellyfrizz]

This: www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/may/29/its-only-a-beer-the-unwritten-contracts-between-men-and-women

gave me a lot to think about too.

[jellyfrizz]

Good article on this, in the 'Men' section interestingly:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/31/men-victorians-women-harassed-public-etiquette

The comments are fun, lots of NAMALTing and feminazi type comments but lots that get it.

[Ereshkigal]

It was. I explained it to my mum (it was in a phone call to our room) who was horrified. I kind of shrugged it off. But then told a female friend who was horrified too.

[MinaPaws]

My mum and I both look considerably younger than we are. At Gatwick airport we got chatting to a (married) man on the next table to us on an overnight before flying to Dubai. All perfectly innocent. Later on he propositioned us for a mother-daughter threesome!

Wow. Some men see women purely in terms of their own sexual gratification. He must be in a state of perpetual porn-fixated arousal to thinkit's OK to ask that. It's weird and frightening.

[Ereshkigal]

My mum and I both look considerably younger than we are. At Gatwick airport we got chatting to a (married) man on the next table to us on an overnight before flying to Dubai. All perfectly innocent. Later on he propositioned us for a mother-daughter threesome!

[villandrychat]

Pratrocket but are they worth the waste of the price of a drink?

[PratRocket]

Oh dear, what a prat! why the need for the swearing though?

Swearing!

keep a pint of water on the table just in case.

Alcopop better, Stickier.

[BastardMs]

You were very restrained OP. I would like to comment along the lines of "i'd have told him to fuck off after the first time" but actually, I probably wouldn't have because I'd have been fearful of his reaction.

Having read through this thread, and read peoples experiences, i'm reminded of the times similar things have happened to me. I was out with girlfriends over Christmas and the men on the table next to us in the pub just decided to pull up their stools and ask to share our mulled wine. I was furious and made it known, so they called me moody and a 'cow' and spoke over my head to my (so-called!) friends the rest of the night. I've been on nights out where we have worn things on our heads, just silly head-band boppers for birthdays/St Patricks day etc. and the amount of men that think it's acceptable to just pull them off your head and walk off with them is colossal. They would never steal something off the head of another man. I wonder why that is

Sorry, that turned into a bit of a rant didn't it.

[SleepingStandingUp]

You were utterly unreasonable.

The first time he'd have refused to let me past he'd have been told to move before I peed on him or got security. My bladder would not have lasted three refusals.

I'm only surprised one of your friends didn't back you up. We regularly do the pretty friend shuffle when out dancing so the creepy guy ends up next to the fat plain one (me) and loses interest

[AmazingPostVoices]

(I've just realised I've put asked and that's part of the problem - told, demanded, ordered would be more appropriate actions!)

Villandry asked should be enough, however I have found that the kind of tone you would use on a misbehaving 12 year old (the tone that brooks no nonsense!) works very well in these situations.

[LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett]

One time a bloke reached over and pulled one of my headphones out of my ear, then attempted to stick it in his own ear. Nearly punched the cheeky fucker!

I was stuck on a level of Angry Birds on the last train once (tend to keep my head down and on my phone) and the guy sitting next to me took my phone off me and passed it down the carriage to his mate who 'is really good at Angry Birds'.

Worst thing about that is when I told DH he was all 'why did you let him take your phone' - even the best guys don't always get that actually, in a train full of drunk men when you can't escape, just nodding and smiling along is sometimes the best approach.

But I must stop letting men take things out of my hands! That's twice on one thread.

[villandrychat]

No, none of us were on the pull! My friends also asked him to let me past but he ignored them (I've just realised I've put asked and that's part of the problem - told, demanded, ordered would be more appropriate actions!)

[Breakingthewaves]

It happens all the time - I go to pubs sometimes and there's always some socially inept misfit who intrudes. Sometimes I get told off by my friends for being rude and a few times later in the eve when they're hanging around and trying it on I'm the one who has to tell them to do one....doesn't go down well. Rejection makes them rather angry

[Breakingthewaves]

Sat on a train recently headphones in - 3 men drunk sat way down the carriage. One came up and poked me and told me to tell his friend some bollox. Told him to fuck off and when I got off the train my suitcase had been nicked...

[MrsTerryPratchett]

I remember when I was younger, if I was meeting a female friend in a bar we always met outside, at the bus stop, or in another spot. We never, EVER met inside the bar.

And I was quite famous for being the one willing to be 'the first' woman at the bar who would wait for the others. I had a few years of being blonde with big breasts under my belt and a very loud (and yes, sweary) mouth. I would wait for all the other women. It's really saddening that all my friends would text/call and see if I was there. Because they were all scared. Totally justifiably.

[AngryAttackKittens]

a bloke came over to me twitched my book out of my hands and started to mansplain the concept of Kindles to me

One time a bloke reached over and pulled one of my headphones out of my ear, then attempted to stick it in his own ear. Nearly punched the cheeky fucker!

You were restrained in the circumstances, OP.

[Iwasjustabouttosaythat]

Was one of your friends into him? As a group of adult women, I don’t understand how none of you have learned to tell a man to go away. I (and my friends) figured that out at 18.

[ThisIsTheFirstStep]

I’ve never been one to politely engage with strangers when they bother me, I just don’t see why I should. Even when I was young, it got my back up that men thought I owed them my time. If they’re a laugh or if they fuck off when asked, no problem. But I never got why my friends entertained guys they weren’t interested in.

It’s just rude to invade someone’s space uninvited, so no problem being rude back to them.