Labour clarifies trans women and AWS

[crispbuttyfan]

Apologies if it is already being discussed, I didn't spot a thread about it.

www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/05/22/labour-trans-women-all-women-shortlists-nec/

This was entirely predictable, and not before time.

I'm sure everyone will agree it's good to have some sort of closure on this issue.

I can't answer these questions nor can I back up my assertions. I shall now flounce but while doing so I will point out that you are all sad little people because you expect facts and logic.

I can't answer these questions nor can I back up my assertions. I shall now flounce but while doing so I will point out that you are all sad little people because you expect facts and logic.

Crisp let the other thread drop, I notice.

Article by James Kirkup about David Lewis' suspension etc:
(concludes)
"If this article has made your head spin a little with the mental contortions required to follow the arguments I have so laboriously set out, I can only apologise, not least for writing like the failing philosophy undergraduate I once was.

But I also suggest you get used to this stuff, because this will soon cease to be an issue just for Labour. The Government will shortly bring forward a consultation that could see a move to introduce the principle of self-identified gender in English law. I wonder if ministers will have some answers to the questions that Labour and David Lewis have raised."
blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/05/the-catch-22-of-labours-gender-policy/

remains as relevant as ever

LangCleg they always do. Whether it be here, twitter or anywhere else. They always run away or cry bigot.

Yep. And the fact remains that UK voters are 3:1 against self-ID - yet all political parties, institutions, third sectors orgs, etc, are absolutely intent on pushing it through, come what may. It's the perfect example of a top down unpopular imposition of policy. Quite how the beneficiaries insist on seeing themselves as a marginalised group utterly defeats me.

I wish somebody high profile would explain this in very simple, plain English, ideally on a TV programme with a huge audience. I honestly believe that most of the UK population don't understand the jargon and switch off when this is discussed. Also, now that LGB has morphed into LGBT a lot of people genuinely think that having some concerns about transgenderism is just a variant of homophobia, and (rightly) they want to distance themselves from that.

The key points for me would be:

1. If anybody can identify as the opposite to their biological sex, women's sport will be badly affected.

1. Children should not be treated as medical cases if they don't conform to toxic gender stereotypes.

1. Men should be challenging restrictive stereotypes for what it means to be a man or a boy. They should be vigorously championing the right of any man to wear what he likes, to express emotion and be sensitive and still be recognised as a man.

1. Teenage girls should be supported to see that not conforming to gender stereotypes, loathing their developing body, hating getting unwanted male attention, feeling attracted to other women, finding a porn-soaked world very frightening and so on are not reasons to conclude that they are really male. They need role models - strong women, lesbian women of all types, a firm line on sexual harassment.

1. While men continue to be more violent and sexually predatory than women, women and girls need sex-segregated spaces for their own safety and also for basic privacy and respect. This is non-negotiable.

Awww langyclegy did you miss me already, maybe you missed my reply in the other thread, I'll repeat it for you...

*
*Obvious gaslighting here.

It's just embarrassing, isn't it? Make an assertion. Get it refuted. Complain about refutation. Get challenged to evidence assertion. Spend pages upon pages making ignorant comments revealing lack of even the most basic understanding of topic at hand (polling). Force endless explanations of the understanding that is lacking. Hope nobody remembers to insist on the evidence for assertion made.

I'm still waiting for a data set from commissioned research by a reputable professional polling company that a majority of women are in favour of penis in their private spaces and/or of amending the GRA to self-ID. This data set will never be forthcoming because it does not exist.*

lol at how everything that doesn't fit into an anti-trans narrative is spun as gaslighting....

Hey langy did you find the yougov poll yet?

Here's something for you....

"To men we asked the same question but concerning a transgender
man, “that is a woman who has gone through all or part of a process
to become a man”.
For both sexes a majority say they are comfortable with a
transgender person using a public toilet according to their gender
identity (Table 5). Women tend to be more comfortable with this
than men, with 72% of women saying they are “very” or “quite
comfortable” with a transgender woman using a female toilet,
compared with 64% of men saying they are comfortable with a
transgender man using male toilets. Around 1 in 6 (14% of women,
and 15% of men) say they are not comfortable with this. "

www.bsa.natcen.ac.uk/media/39147/bsa34_moral_issues_final.pdf

"Women are more likely than men to condemn prejudice against
transgender people (58% of women say it is “always wrong”
compared with 46% of men). "
***

Seriously, this isn't real life, it's a daft forum board..... go and enjoy the sunshine, get some fresh air...... you might even absorb some of the real world, scary as it sounds it's not that bad...... you may even befriend some lovely trans people.... you may have to work a little on your manners though if I'm going to be totally honest with you....

We all know most people don't want self ID. It's batshit. Any neutral person who thinks about it for more than 5 seconds gets that. Up to now TRAs and their misguided allies have stacked the deck by framing the question in an obfuscatory and manipulative way, The new poll for England confirms this. It's not surprising who doesn't want to accept it.

@crispbuttyfan, I've seen those poll results before. I would very much like to know if it was made clear to respondents that transgender is a term that includes people who are not taking hormones and haven't had surgery and have no plans to change that. I think most people hearing the word 'transgender' believe it means 'transsexual'. If they understood that people can self-ID as trans without changing their bodies they'd respond very differently, as shown by the Scottish poll mentioned above.

Crisp when I thought a transsexual woman was a man who'd had his penis removed And was sexually interested in men I was ok with with sharing the space.

As soon as I realised I was being asked to share a space with a person with a penis that more likely than not had a sexual fetish and was sexually interested in women my view changed as I no longer felt safe.

We're not being difficult - we are scared of male violence with good reason.

How many people being asked the question realise the definition of a transwoman has changed?

Certain - nice username by the way . Don't bite, don't be drawn in by this lonely man in shirt-sleeves hanging out of his sad little conversation window.

How many people being asked the question realise the definition of a transwoman has changed?

This with bells on. And flashing lights. Most of the general public think transwoman = man suffering gender dysphoria who has had their penis removed and just wants to live a quiet life

Neither Labour nor anyone else can equate gender with sex, or apply self ID to sex rather than gender.
Sex is set at conception, and is immutable.

Everyone - I've already replied to Crisp on the thread copied from above. Crisp isn't replying there because, presumably, there is still no data set. You can check it to see my reply which details the Wings data from today.

Where is my data set, Crisp? You've had 24 hours now. There is no data set, is there?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3255972-Meet-the-man-standing-to-be-a-Labour-party-women-s-officer?pg=11

This thread here has extensive discussion about the framing of survey questions. Crisp is avoiding resurrecting. I wonder why.

Data set please.

I can't answer these questions nor can I back up my assertions. I shall now flounce but while doing so I will point out that you are all sad little people because you expect facts and logic.

Well put!

lol clangy
I already showed you a survey far more robust than your pathetic attempt.....so blah blah blah... the rest of the replies clearly accept the survey I put up because they are now saying if the question had been different ...blah blah blah... you won't accept anything that counters your opinion, which by the way is everything from reputable sources..... so maybe we should just avoid engaging with each other directly......at this point I really can not take you serious whatsoever in any kind of discussion, I'm sure your about to point out the feeling is mutual...... so you keep on with your half-arsed conspiracy stuff...... and I'll keep using reputable sources.... and we'll carry on doing our own thing in this mad-house... thanks for the exchanges best wishes...

LOL! Live long and prosper!

(I'm translating that as No, I don't have a data set.)

Don't bite,

I'm quite bitey though

"Women are more likely than men to condemn prejudice against
transgender people (58% of women say it is “always wrong”
compared with 46% of men). "

Not sure what this proves. Most people on here would condemn prejudice against transgender people.

Certain Me too. I just thought it was a nice opportunity to quote a bit of TSE.

This lonely crisp who posts his rubbish on the Mumsnet thread
This childish butt who misquotes studies on the Mumsnet thread
But we have heard them all already, heard them all:
Have heard the half-baked stats, the insults and the lies,
We have answered posts knowing they won't read our replies
We know the sound of losers losing arguments
And flouncing off lamely while declaring that they've won
I wish he'd not begun

Love it

It is a fucking amazing poem.

It makes me all sort of sad and listless