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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

MRI scan can show if you are transgender. Apparently

126 replies

Guadeloupe · 22/05/2018 18:50

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/05/22/transgender-brain-scans-promised-study-shows-structural-differences/amp/

OP posts:
leyat · 23/05/2018 16:30

....but it will be interesting to read the study when it's published, often the findings aren't how they're being sold either....

fmsfms · 23/05/2018 16:38

"The book was/is highly influential. I haven't read it, but I probably should."

Hmm Grin

I know that her recent book which won an award was far from proving anything or settling any debates. Previously linked a Quillette article which rebutted a lot of her arguments.

"Did you read the '12 rules' book? One of the rules is something like, "Assume the person you are talking to knows something you don't".

Pre-ordered it on Amazon which meant I never got a signed copy when I saw him in January :(

Listened to it on audiobook.

Everyone that has referenced Cordelia Fine doesn't provide any quotes or summaries of what in her books is relevant - just tells me to "read it". As you've admitted you haven't read it, so I'm sceptical what in there is so relevant

leyat · 23/05/2018 16:45

Okay so Bowl your words were perfect, which I had skim read the thread better before posting!

Also re Cordelia Fine, Testosterone Rex is her (fairly) new book, I highly recommend it, she won a science award for it too.

Yes being dysphoric isn't being 'transgender', or a 'gender identity' totally agree with the many sentiments here that we need to keep that clear.

I think what is particularly telling is that in all the divergence in brain structures found in huge studies like the one described above, none of them find a concordance with dysphoric feeling or trans identity, i.e. the more someone's brain fits with what was thought of as maleness and femaleness in terms of brain structure, didn't reflect any likelihood in either dysphoric feelings or indeed a trans identity. I get they weren't specifically looking at that, but the results speak for themselves, only 0-8% of the time was there the kind of distinction they thought was generally distinct based on sex, therefore if this was a reflection of dysphoria or trans identity, literally most people would have those issues to some degree.

Anyway I'm off to read threads properly now before posting ;)

leyat · 23/05/2018 16:49

@fmsfms this is a good interview with her, if you are interested, it sums up a lot. Personally I consider neurosexism pseudoscience at this point, but then I know I don't have a lady brain, so there's that....: thepsychologist.bps.org.uk/volume-23/edition-11/battle-sex-differences

SomeDyke · 23/05/2018 17:13

"Everyone that has referenced Cordelia Fine doesn't provide any quotes or summaries of what in her books is relevant........."
The whole book. Hows that! Smile

Why would you expect quotes? Okay for scientific papers where some on here have online access to the complete text. But as in academic papers, I'd reference a book (usually) as an entire book (and assume someone knows how to use an index/TOC).

Sorry, this seems a fairly weak attempted dismissal of her books, that no one told you exactly what page to read.........................

flowersonthepiano · 23/05/2018 17:52

fms The point I was trying to make is not that Cordelia Fine is right, but that her work is well-respected shouldn't be dismissed out of hand

Thanks leyat for the interview link. A good place to start (for me). I'll also have a look at the Quilette article for the other perspective. And I think the book might be the next to grace my kindle.

RedToothBrush · 24/05/2018 07:21

quillette.com/2018/05/24/cant-woman-like-man/

Published today, the loveable eugenicist and we'll known sexist Toby Young argues about differences between men and women based on brain scans.

flowersonthepiano · 24/05/2018 08:33

RTB I assume we can agree that Toby Young is a prat of the highest order. And the pink and blue brain image at the top of the piece is downright goady.

But, what if his premise is correct? As i read it, all he is saying is that there are differences on average between male and female brains? The evidence is looking fairly good to me...

If it is correct, clearly the important thing is what you do with that knowledge.

Anyway, I'm off to read Cordelia Fine and will let you know if think differently afterwards.

FermatsTheorem · 24/05/2018 09:11

The other book well worth reading is Lise Elliott's Pink Brain, Blue Brain (don't be put off by the title - it's about debunking the distinction). She's a neuroscientist whose area of expertise and research is brain plasticity in early childhood (if you can lay hands on a copy, her earlier book What's Going on in there: brain development from 0 to 5 is also superb - but sadly out of print).

In summary, she has a two-pronged attack on what Cordelia Fine calls neurosexism. First she goes through the literature on purported cognitive differences between the sexes and demonstrates that even in the few studies which are both methodologically robust and have statistically significant results, the differences they show up have tiny d-values (difference in means divided by product of standard deviations).

In the spirit of "a picture tells a thousand words" I've attached an image of d-values. Height (one of the more obviously dimorphic characteristics in humans) has a d-value of about 1.5 if memory serves me right; those few cognitive differences that have been measured come out with d-values below 0.5 - i.e. the distributions are almost indistinguishable. In real-world terms suppose, for instance, by 18 months the average girl has a vocab of 50 words and the average boy 45... however, it may well be that 48% of boys still outperform the average girl. So for instance to tell a mother with a son who is still non-verbal at 2.5 "don't worry, boys just talk later" is seriously misleading and even dangerous advice. (These are made up numbers btw, but ball-park correct - my copy is currently on loan to a friend).

The second prong is to point out that infant brains are incredibly plastic. Stimulate one aspect of their lives and that part of their brain will develop strongly; neglect to provide stimulus and it won't do so well. (NB, this is not "blank slate" - there are areas which are pre-primed, as it were, to develop in certain ways. Steven Pinker is very good on this in The Language Instinct. It's just that how well these pre-primed areas develop is determined to a larger degree than people realise by external stimuli.)

The other thing we know and can measure is that adults treat children of different sexes differently right from earliest infancy. (One study I read about looked at how adults treat newborns - girls are cuddled facing inwards and told they're beautiful, boys are often pointed outwards and given a running commentary on the world. One of the studies Elliott uses is 9 month babies and angled ramps - left to their own devices there's no difference in the steepness of ramps the babies can tackle, but mothers of daughters typically intervene and whisk their child to safety at a lower angle than mothers of sons.) All of this has a huge effect on the brain, so by the time researchers are carrying out experiments on cognitive difference (age of first words, rotational and spatial awareness puzzles, maths ability) there is no way you could devise an experiment that could separate out nature and nurture.

(And for the avoidance of doubt, yes I have read the whole book - it was fascinating and "un-put-downable". I've read the whole of The Language Instinct too - also a great read. I'm about half way through Fine at the moment.)

MRI scan can show if you are transgender. Apparently
leyat · 24/05/2018 09:40

Fermats thanks for sharing that, you explain things so clearly! Yup it all keeps coming back to the kinds of conclusions from that 2015 study, i.e. that there's no such thing as a distinct male and female brain, there's far too much overlap that even to speak of averages becomes meaningless in any real world sense and as you say, misleading.

And also any differences that do exist may be down to post natal environment, including gender socialisation. Which is interesting when thinking of transgender people because if, for eg, little boys are socialised in some ways the same as girls rather than other boys, over time that can have an impact on brain development, at least in theory.

fmsfms · 24/05/2018 09:52

@FermatsTheorem

Good post, rather than just mentioning an author or a book title you've actually summarised part with some supporting analysis.

I have much more curiosity and interest in what you've said than if you'd just said "go read Lise Elliot!"

flowersonthepiano · 24/05/2018 10:01

Yep, great post Fermats. Thanks for that!

thebewilderness · 25/05/2018 00:38

fmsfms

Do you have any idea how creepy it is that you keep sharing your judgment on the usefulness to you of other people's comments?

leyat · 27/05/2018 22:12

Just saw this posted from the study, is there anyone with a biology background on here who can break this down a bit? Interesting to note that the changes mentioned are post puberty, but also it's beyond annoying how they constantly refer to sex as gender in these studies (!).

MRI scan can show if you are transgender. Apparently
Pratchet · 27/05/2018 22:59

I don't have a biology background but it's clear that to establush that males have a female brain you must first establ

Pratchet · 27/05/2018 23:03

Whoops that a female brain exists and can be identified. Any study of this type, including this one, rests on the discovery that make and female brains share traits. I.e. Some males have traits ascribed female. This means not that the brains inside the male body are female, but thatcthe traits are (see above) found in a male body and are therefore wrongly presumed to be female traits. Therefore the unique female brain identifier has not been found and instead the study proves that there is no female brain. Therefore it is impossible for a female brain to exist obvs male body, because no such female brain exists.

It's not biology, it's analysing the fatal flaws of presumption aka begging the question.

Ereshkigal · 27/05/2018 23:10

Yes maybe a brain study of participants sourced via questionnaires who are not transgender but have psychological traits culturally associated with being female would be genuinely interesting. I'd guess there wouldn't be much of a correlation but I'd keep an open mind.

thebewilderness · 27/05/2018 23:11

There has been more variation within sexes than between sexes in all these MRI studies, but that doesn't stop them from claiming that physiognomy eugenics transgender brains are scientifically proven by science.

Artemis7 · 27/05/2018 23:39

There have been numerous meta analysis studies (that pool together many, many individual studies), these meta studies have shown that the brain differences that were thought to exist are either none existent, or so small as to be inconsequential. Therefore, Pratchet is correct there is no such thing as ‘brain sex’. For there to be such a thing as a ‘transgender brain’ brain sex would have to exist, which despite efforts to prove this, the evidence points against it.

However, parts of the brain can change as a result of mental illness, so those that are suffering from gender dysphoria may well have certain parts of the brain active, that others do not. The brain is not fixed though, as brain plasticity exists, which enables the brain to change with certain inventions.

Personally I generally ignore these types of individual studies on ‘brain sex’ and ‘transgender brains’ as brain sex has already been disproven by meta analysis studies, so they are not worth bothering with IMHO.

thebewilderness · 28/05/2018 01:03

Personally I generally ignore these types of individual studies on ‘brain sex’ and ‘transgender brains’ as brain sex has already been disproven by meta analysis studies, so they are not worth bothering with IMHO.

The problem in my view is that the media popularizes these claims every time they are made without bothering to find out if they are true or not. When the new study they promoted is debunked they aren't interested in having anyone on to talk about it.

Pratchet · 28/05/2018 03:55

Yes the Media love them, the Guardian because in part because it loves trans forever, the Mail and Telegraph because they think they prove that women have lipstick ladybrains. In fact they prove the opposite but you know, journalists.

larrygrylls · 28/05/2018 09:42

It is an incredibly complex area and there is evidence (and a lot of bias) coming from both sides.

Clearly females and males have different genotypes but how these are expressed may depend on environment, including hormones in utero.

Saying sec is purely determined by chromosomes and genitals may be simplistic. I think functional mri brain imaging, especially in new norms, is very interesting and a way of at least finding evidence one way or the other.

larrygrylls · 28/05/2018 09:42

New borns

AngryAttackKittens · 28/05/2018 09:45

Pretty much all mainstream reporting of science stories is utter shit, honestly. You'd think they could find people who know how to read an abstract at the very least.

Pratchet · 28/05/2018 09:53

Obviously it's not simplistic to say that sex is defined by reproductive role. Reproductive role is incredibly complex. Your personality has no impact on your reproductive role.