MRI scan can show if you are transgender. Apparently

[Guadeloupe]

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/05/22/transgender-brain-scans-promised-study-shows-structural-differences/amp/

I saw that earlier. Does anyone have a link to the paper? It would be interesting to have a read.

I would also be interested in reading the paper to see how the study was created.

A couple of questions that come to me as someone with the barest scientific knowledge would be: Did they have a control group? How had the trans participants been transitioned for, had they taken hormones? How did they control for the impact of brain plasticity? Further, how can they be sure that the results are due to nature and not a change caused by behaviour?

I'm personally not averse to the idea that it may turn out that there is some neurological basis to being trans - though I suspect (based on the anthropological data that suggests third genders and the like are more common in societies with very rigid gender boundaries - in the old social sciences sense of stereotyped behaviours and appearances deemed appropriate for one or other biological sex) that the whole picture is a multi-factorial one. A given biologically male individual with a brain structure more typical of the opposite sex may turn out trans or turn out as an effeminate man depending on the culture in which they are embedded.

Also, this research, even if replicated, and robust, and with a sufficiently large d-value to justify the idea that this brain structure can be thought of as "typically female" still doesn't answer the question of whether to count transwomen as women. As an analogy, being, say, over 6" tall as a woman means you have a height which is more typical of man - but that just means you're an unusually tall woman. If this brain structure difference is identifiable clearly (and not an artefact of statistical analysis/small sample size/other methodological quirk) it just shows that some chromosomally male individuals have a brain structure more closely aligned with that of biological females - it doesn't make them female.

These pop culture reports surface all the time with claims that brain plasticity tests prove that men are hardwired to rape and kill us all if they don't get what they want.
Oh wait! Wrong pop culture application. This one "proves" that TWAW.
The transgender advocate created the same illusion in their TV show by taking a faux q&a and a brain scan to "prove" they are trans.

But if they are finding female brain structures in males, and male brains in females, then surely both sexes can have both types of brains?????

Also we sex humans based on reproductive potential, not brain type.

I think you'll find that TIM's are not even very impressed with this study. I know I'm not. I'll wait to see some long term studies with built in safeguards conducted by a reputable research lab.

I couldn't find a link to the BArcelona meeting paper. I found this paper a bit earlier:

www.psyneuen-journal.com/article/S0306-4530(17)30559-0/abstract

The key thing here is they seem to be talking strictly gender-dysphoria, not the 'I say I am' that self-ID favours. Also, brain plasticity, do the measured differences persist after puberty, what do the differences MEAN (because I'm never convinced by the measure X, and lo and behold more female than male when you possibly only have ONE axis to start with.............).

Have they controlled for sexual orientation, does it change with age/treatment, lots of questions, not just it's in the brain therefore THERE, real (and unchangable). I think we have already seen elsewhere that there are measurable differences in brains that correspond to various things but that is NOT verifying the female-brain-in-male body hypothesis -- nor is it necessarily gonna be popular given the current dysphoria is not necessary brigade.

Let's see what anyone else can find, I gave it my best shot.

Also I have to add that Psychoneuroendocrinology is a hell of a name for a journal (but then Springer is german-based, so perhaps explains that choice??).........................Not as snappy as PAIN or as probing as the lancet........................

I suppose I feel that if a reliable test were to become available then self-ID is dead in the water. Or at least that's the way it would have worked twenty years ago.

Yes, in the brave new world of pomo biology, brains can have a sex but genitals can't.

*But if they are finding female brain structures in males, and male brains in females, then surely both sexes can have both types of brains?????

Also we sex humans based on reproductive potential, not brain type.*

exactly this!

brains different or brains the same, i'm happy for some people to be trans, just as i am for some people to be religious. variety is good!

it is only a problem when the ideology is pushed onto everyone that being trans is in fact not being trans but actually being the opposite sex. this renders the rights of women and girls as a sex class meaningless, and is an irresponsible thing to tell children.

I found this abstract:

www.abstractsonline.com/pp8/#!/4592/presentation/578

Hoping some excellent scientist can dig a bit deeper.

Well if my young adult child (who thinks they are transgender) had an MRI scan which proved they "were transgender" would that make a lifetime of artificial hormones and surgery any better? No.

If there is such a thing as being genetically pre-disposed to like and dress more like the opposite sex; then surely the far far better solution is to encourage and support that person to live exactly as they please; not treat them as a problem which needs to be fixed.

What do they mean by transgender and gender dysphoria here?

What if you think you are a transwoman but then an MRI scan shows you aren't? Awks.

What if you think you are a transwoman but then an MRI scan shows you aren't? Awks.

Just a tad.

I’d actually welcome this if it were the case - no need to self ID, no need for long drawn out peocessed, an MRI to classify you and then that’s that.

Brain scans like this would just show that brain traits are shared betwe n males and females and none are unique.

The researchers beg the question by designating the group 'trans' before the study.

Otherwise it's jst males and females with no unique M / F brain traits.

If you didn't have the trans labelnto start with, it would be a study showing there are no defining neurological features of male or female brain.

In other words, Seahorses said it first upthread

Good point wanderabout. I wonder whether the term transgender is defined in the study.

The important question is "did they control for sexual orientation?" because another study did and showed that gender dysphoric people have the same brain as non-GD of the same sex with one consistent difference.

The full paper has not yet been published, so the primary data are not available for examination. The article is based on a presentation by a Prof Bakker from Belgium at the European congress of Endocrinology. I’ve copied the abstract below:

“The concept of gender identity is uniquely human. Hence we are left with the phenomenon of men and women suffering from Gender Dysphoria (GD) also known as transsexualism to study the origins of gender identity in humans. It has been hypothesized that atypical levels of sex steroids during a perinatal critical period of neuronal sexual differentiation may be involved in the development of GD. In order to test this hypothesis, we investigated brain structure and function in individuals diagnosed with GD using magnetic resonance imaging (MRI). Since GD is often diagnosed in childhood and puberty has been proposed to be an additional organizational period in brain differentiation, we included both prepubertal children and adolescents with GD in our studies. First, we measured brain activation upon exposure to androstdienone, a putative male chemo-signal which evokes sex differences in hypothalamic activation (women > men). We found that hypothalamic responses of both adolescent girls and boys diagnosed with GD were more similar to their experienced gender than their birth sex, which supports the hypothesis of a sex-atypical brain differentiation in these individuals. At the structural level, we analyzed both regional gray matter (GM) volumes and white matter (WM) microstructure using diffusion tensor imaging. In cis-gender girls, larger GM volumes were observed in the bilateral superior medial frontal and left pre/postcentral cortex, while cis-gender boys had more volume in the bilateral superior-posterior cerebellum and hypothalamus. Within these regions of interest representing sexually dimorphic brain structures, GM volumes of both GD groups deviated from the volumetric characteristics of their birth sex towards those of individuals sharing their gender identity. Furthermore, we found intermediate patterns in WM microstructure in adolescent boys with GD, but only sex-typical ones in adolescent girls with GD. These results on brain structure are thus partially in line with sex-atypical differentiation of the brain during early development in individuals with GD, but might also suggest that other mechanisms are involved. Indeed, using resting state MRI, we observed GD-specific functional connectivity in the visual network in adolescent girls with GD. The latter is in support of a more recent hypothesis on alterations in brain networks important for own body perception and self-referential processing in individuals with GD.”

The article seemed to suggest it came from the European Congress in Endocrinology but I can’t find it even amongst the poster abstracts. There was one piece on bone density with cross sex hormones but was just a narrative abstract.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/05/22/transgender-brain-scans-promised-study-shows-structural-differences/

Well done flowers I missed it.

I don’t buy a word of this transgender brain nonsense. I’ve never done a feminine thing in my life but I can get away with dressing like a man. A bloke who is as girly as I am butch would get hell for it. I feel like a woman means I want to carry a handbag and wear a dress, but society has taught me that it’s forbidden and I’m punished if I do.
I bet if there really was a brain test for transgender I’d probably come up positive. The reason I’m not is because in general society just dismisses me as a butch dyke and once blokes have got it through their thick heads that they can’t fuck me nobody really cares. Masculinity is such a narrow definition that if a bloke is even suspected of being a bit poofy he’s going to get it. How many Gay men do you see walking round in skirts and high heels? Not many, and not very often.
Gender dysphoria aside, I wonder how much internalised homophobia contributes to transgenderism?

It's not conclusive and it will be interesting to see the full paper.

bd67th Thank you for that link, it's rather long so I've saved it to read later.