Gender pay gap

[FlyTipper]

The world divides into two: those who believe a gender pay gap exists, and those who don't.

Those who don't say women are doing different jobs. They are working part-time, prioritising home/family, do not want the high level responsibility and work load associated with high profile jobs. Thus women choose lower paid jobs because they prefer the conditions.

Those who believe it exists say two people presenting the same show or headlining the same film should be paid the same but clearly are not.

My position: women do different work and this largely explains the observed pay gap. But where the world is set up for men to succeed, women have to pick up the 'crumbs' they can. SO the pay gap doesn't truly exist, but that isn't because of women's choice.

As befits my character, I like to have my views tested. DO you agree?

I think it was this study:

www.google.co.uk/amp/amp.timeinc.net/fortune/2017/01/27/girls-believe-boys-smarter-young-age

Now it was a sample size of 400 children which isn’t necessarily a smoking gun by any means, but it’s more than enough for more a deep dive into this. We need to research this more.

I've got to go out now, but will come back to this...

I am actually doing a consulting project at a University so there are options to think about....

I see these areas:

• Children: Women pretty much have to make a choice, career vs. children. Women earn more in their 20s than men. By the mid 30s it's the other way round. It's been shown in the data that having children negatively affects all but the very successful women. Whereas men benefit. This is a problem. Guys arguing this is "normal" or "ok" or whatever else are MRA. Women should not be forced to have to make this choice. They should not be penalized so heavily. Even taking 1-2 years out should not have such a detrimental affect on your career. It's plain prejudice against mothers.

• Socialization: Women choose less well-paid jobs. I believe that is to a not insignificant part due to socialization. Why would a woman join a career where 90% are men and she has to fight all the way? I wouldn't do it. Maybe I would if it were 90% but as a woman with 90% men, no way.

• Society: Directly links to the previous, women's work is not valued. The work traditionally performed by women is not assigned a lot of monetary value in society.

• Picking up the slack: Again linked to the previous and circling back to the first, women do a lot of "picking up the slack". Most unpaid hours of work, be it with children or at home or caring for people (relatives) is performed by women.

So anyone who says the gender pay gap does not exist is talking out of his arse, or simply doesn't understand the issues. Yes of course in most companies men and women are paid the same (for ranks below manager, i.e. below where contract negotiations matter) but that's not what the pay gap is about. The points I listed as issues, are not explanations (and thus acceptable) for the pay gap in the data. They are problems.

ps as an afterthought, maybe a bit controversial but Jordan Peterson has some videos on this relating to "agreeableness". Women are more so and men less so. This makes girls better students, but men more successful in careers and he explained how he helped (he is practicing after all) women be less agreeable and have successful careers. But even with this I would question, why is it this way? Do these people who are less agreeable really bring more value to society, more profit to firms? I don't know.

FlyTipper

"Oh dear.

More equal/free/liberal Countries = more freedom for women to pursue the prescribed norms for their sex their own interests.

Less free/equal Countries then the only way for women to progress is by pursuing professions that increase their earning potential thus giving them reason to work against gender stereotypes

I think you underestimate the degree to which social conditioning affects every aspect of women's lives in our so-called 'free' continent. That means you are new to this board, or a man, or both. I suggest you get clued up by reading Cordelia Fine's Delusions of Gender."

What do you make of Norway? They try to be the most supportive of women but this is exactly the case for them, they end up with men in positions of power/money and women do more "social" type work. Would you say they have subconscious gender stereotyping ("prescribed norms" as you say) that these women fall into, or what is going on?

Does agreeable mean compliant and someone who readily acquiesces to more dominant people?

Do women who become less agreeable get rewarded the same way as men who are "naturally" less agreeable? Or are they penalised for it?

@assassinatedbeauty

"Agreeableness is a personality trait manifesting itself in individual behavioral characteristics that are perceived as kind, sympathetic, cooperative, warm, and considerate."

You've used quotes, is that definition from somewhere specific i.e. an agreed definition that is used in psychological research in this area?

@mrghardy "Even taking 1-2 years out should not have such a detrimental affect on your career."

If the pay gap is the difference on average between lifetime earnings of men/women. Then clearly all other things being equal then taking 1-2 years out of your career is going to reduce your lifetime earnings vs someone who doesn't.

Let's assume we have two twin brothers who are identical in every way, education, ability, work ethic etc. At 21 they enter the same graduate scheme and work/perform equally, paid the same etc.

At 30 Brother A decides to take 2 years out to go travelling. Brother B stays with the firm in the same job. Brother A returns 2 years later as planned and they both work until 65.

Brother B has +2 years of salary and pension contributions. He's earned more than Brother A, is that fair? Of course it is

Now replace Brother A with Sister A and 2 years travelling with 2 years maternity leave. Brother B still has +2 years work exp than Sister A and has earned more than her over the course of their careers. Is that fair?

@Assassinatedbeauty

I'm sure you're just as capable of googling agreeableness as me. It was from the first google result which was wikipedia

So the Wikipedia definition is what Jordan Peterson and others use when referring to the personality trait that women seem to have more than men?

@assassinatedbeauty "So the Wikipedia definition is what Jordan Peterson and others use when referring to the personality trait that women seem to have more than men?"

Dear god, did I say that? You're putting words in my mouth Cathy Newman style "so you're saying the wikipedia definition is what Jordan Peterson uses"

It's really tiresome to have to constantly point this out

Oh bless you. But thanks for trying.

I asked you a question. That's not putting words into your mouth. You can answer, yes or no, or a more complex response. You're the big JP fan who has an encyclopaedic knowledge of all his output. This topic of "agreeableness" is mentioned in his work and research, and what I was asking was is there a standard definition for what this means when it comes to that research.

It's such a rhetorical and obvious question - do you really need to ask whether an ex Harvard academic with a global reputation uses primarily uses wikipedia as the foundation for his research/knowledge/opinions?

No.
Which is why I asked.
For a genuine answer, not a flippant and dismissive response.

you don't really need to ask but you did anyway?

Ok. You're misunderstanding everything I'm posting. I hope not deliberately. You seem to be working from the assumption that I'm quite dim and completely literal.

I asked, an age ago now, what JP and his ilk defined "agreeableness" as. Considering that research is conducted into this specifically, and it's often given as an example of where women are vastly different to men. I'd like to understand more about what people like JP mean when they're talking about this personality attribute.

You responded by giving an apparent quote as to the definition of agreeableness. I asked where from, and you quoted Wikipedia via an Internet search. My next question was supposed to demonstrate my incredulity that you would suggest that the definition used in such research came direct from Wikipedia. It was not a suggestion that I literally thought that's what you meant. I'm not working on the assumption that you're quite dim and completely literal. I knew that you couldn't possibly mean that this was the definition used on scientific research. Hence the incredulity that you were being so dismissive and flippant as to dump it on the thread as a supposed response. But, whatever, dude.

"you would suggest that the definition used in such research came direct from Wikipedia."

See, this is the misrepresentation inherent to your posts. You think that me using the wikipedia definition means that everyone else follows that definition. You seem to be casting some level of doubt onto the authenticity/reliableness of wikipedia.

The wikipedia definition was visible on the first page of search results, as was similar definitions from other sites. The definition barely varies from site to site, therefore I have no doubts about the authenticity of the wikipedia definition

I mean all this could have been avoided if you took the time to use google yourself

Or, you know, you could have just ignored my post and not responded.

You asked me a direct question, lol - I wanted to continue the discussion, I had no idea answering the question would result in this pointless and totallly unnecessary derail/tangent

You asked me a direct question, lol - I wanted to continue the discussion, I had no idea answering the question would result in this pointless and totallly unnecessary derail/tangent

We know about the interview tactic of answering the question you want instead of the on asked. Srsly. Clear communication 101.

Yes it's a shame you can't understand what other people are saying, and get bogged down in excessively literal interpretations.

I would have though that as a enthusiast about JP, you would have had a link to post or a YouTube video to recommend. But hey ho.

Agreeableness and the big five personality traits are such an accepted topic that it really didn't need a video, as evidenced by the google search results

AssassinatedBeauty
"No.
Which is why I asked.
For a genuine answer, not a flippant and dismissive response."

Says the person who writes....

"Oh bless you. But thanks for trying" 😁

In response to an equally flippant and dismiss post. But, yep, my bad.

It's a real shame we can't actually discuss the gender pay gap on a gender pay gap thread.

This is beyond a joke.