New expert, new issue

[Raven88]

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/permission-nappy-change-consent-sexuality-expert-deanne-carson-a8345581.html

Just thought I'd leave this here.

I don’t know, I always explained to my DC as babies what I was doing when, not so much in a consent framework but just as chatter so they knew what was happening.

I was going to write more, but I am actually wary of writing too much about children and consent with examples in case it attracts those with unhealthy interests in such matters.

But generally I agree - because of past events, I have absolutely taught my DC privates are private and that includes hygiene and medical matters, they need to say it is okay. I don’t think you can start that too early, obviously there is a balance with not neglecting hygiene.

Lol. Just wouldn't work with mine the only answer he ever gives is "no". Still is.

It would go
"Can I change your nappy?"
"No"
"OK should we leave your nappy on?"
"No"
"OK come here please then"
"No"
Starts running around and we end up arguing.

In theory there's nothing wrong with the idea though.

I'm fully on board with letting kids know what's going on, talking through what's going to happen etc. I like the idea of saying stuff and looking at the child so they know that you're interacting with them, it's a good idea BUT. The issue I have with this, is it often isn't going to be consent is it! Unless you're really planning to not change that kid's nappy?

I've been lucky, my kids, as a rule, have always wanted their nappy changed, but there's been times when they've been busy and don't. How can this work in that situation - I've either got to leave them hanging out, stinking up the place (and injuring themselves with nappy rash - which then makes changes horrible for them and continues the cycle) or I have to ignore their lack of consent - thereby teaching them the opposite of what I was aiming to teach them.

I can see it's a minefield really - that somehow you have to get a child to understand that they have body autonomy, they can always tell someone to get knotted, but, that also, you have to let me change your nappy/give you medicine/bath you/let the nurse give you injections etc. because it's in your best interest.

Perhaps it's worth thinking about being respectful of their wishes and autonomy, more generally, in an age-appropriate way? So if most of the time you listen to and consider what they want, e.g. stop tickling them if they say no, etc., then that is the overall healthy pattern you establish, even if the child can't get their way every time...that's what I'm trying to do with my 15-month-old, although it doesn't always work!

Is it just me, or does this feel close to that whole "mums are to blame for everything" trope?

(And I know she uses the word parents but let's face it, most childcare is by Mums)

I agree it is about teaching a child they don’t have to hug or accept kisses, they can say no and that should be respected. Only tickle if they want tickled etc.

I had this with xH, he would insist that DD and DSD gave him a hug and a kiss in the morning. I said not to do this, as this was teaching them they had to conform to a pattern of giving affection to a man, regardless of what they wanted. He did the same to me. It’s one reason why we are no longer together.

And yes, it’s about mums but most of the sexual threat comes from men. Why don’t we teach men about consent, not make it about how parents (read mums) bring up their children?

When it comes to things that have to be done, nappy changes and medicines come to mind immediately, I think asking for consent is a risky thing. If your child doesn't want it done, you risk teaching them that no matter what they say, you won't listen and will disregard their feelings.

Much better to explain what you are doing and why so that they understand that you are acting in their best interests. As they get older, these actions will no longer be required, or the child becomes easier to reason with.

Consent should be taught and respected, but with babies/ toddlers this should be started with unnecessary physical contact, for example respecting their choice not to kiss grandma goodbye.

So if the child says no you just let them sit around in their own feces till they change their mind? That doesn't seem like the world's best idea.

When it comes to things that have to be done, nappy changes and medicines come to mind immediately, I think asking for consent is a risky thing.

Quite. You just announce what needs to happen together with an explanation for why it needs to happen - There's poo in your nappy/your nappy has been on for ages now. You need a clean one. This is appropriate for the level of development.

Similar to not giving them an open choice about what to wear because they'll choose shorts and a vest when it's snowing. You give a closed choice between the green jumper and the red jumper.

As I'm not a mother I wasn't sure about this one. When I have had to look after other people's babies I usually talk through what I am doing. I think introducing the idea of consent and self ownership is important.

It’s something we’ve been trained to do for some time in the Early Years.

It’s not so much asking permission, though that comes into it, but more warning the child and talking to them to increase their vocabulary. I imagine most parents already do it.

This IMO is more up-it’s-own-arse POMO lunacy akin to the people who refuse to let a child know it’s biological sex under the guise of ‘gender neutral parenting’.

All that is needed really for effective parenting is an understanding of attachment theory and the difference between permissive/authoritative/authoritarian parenting styles.

I add to those basic principles things like class analysis and critical thinking in my parenting but I know those things are my ideology and not considered strictly essential for most people.

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a parent that doesn’t just naturally say ‘come on then let’s go and get you a clean bum’ to a baby/small child but trying to apply a framework of consent seeking that applies to sexual activity between adults? That’s so much misunderstanding of child development right there.

Would it not be better to talk to adults re what they expect to be able to do to children?!

I think this raises an important conversation around respecting children's boundaries so they respect their own and other people's from a very very young age. I've mentioned before that I have seen boy toddler boundaries invaded more than girl toddler boundaries which I think prompts more aggression from them and between them. Obviously nappy changing can't be a consent issue. But tickling is one that for me requires consent. I cannot bear to see a child tickled without permission.

We also ask permission before taking the photographs we need for evidence. I’ve yet to have a child refuse , but I’m sure one day I shall.

We teach the children to respect their own boundaries, too. If a child says “No” to a friend, they mean “No”!
Very often, they don’t even hear that their friend is distressed or uncomfortable until it’s pointed out to them.
I hope that stands them in good stead when they’re older.

I like the sound of your setting Tanith

I don't ask, I just sing. I like to feel it keeps the boy involved.

Today it was
You must remember this
You do some smelly piss
It makes your mummy cry
It brings a tear up to her eye
That smelly wee-ye

Best I could do ad lib, soz

Well! She's good at the permanent shut down isn't she?

Carson concluded her post warning those that have attacked her that their actions are harmful to survivors of sexual assault as it negates “the voices of these brave survivors of sexual abuse"

Really? So nobody is allowed to disagree with her, or ask for further clarification, as they will be causing literal violence - where have we heard that before?

I hate that kind of emotional blackmail. Not only is it very rarely founded in any truth, but it patronises the very people it pretends to be protecting.

And why is she an expert?

There’s a factfinder on Snopes regarding her comments:

www.snopes.com/fact-check/did-educator-say-ask-babies-permission/

I think that telling children what is going to happen etc is a good thing rather than things just being done to them suddenly or unexpectedly etc.

I also think that most parents do this sort of thing without really thinking about it - it's one of those things like "baby talk" that has been done for always but then science decides to look at it and deem whether parents (mums) intuition is right or wrong...

All bets are off when they're toddlers and wriggling and trying to escape and you have to just catch them and get it done without ending up with shit everywhere or them escaping with no nappy on

Ah! So she doesn't claim to be an expert.

Thanks Tanith, I hadn't found the Snopes info.

What she was really saying was obvious, I had worked out that she was being misrepresented, and many other posters here outlined what she had actually said.

But I wasn't keen on her responses to some of the stupid criticisms... though I suppose she may have had her fill of idiocy when she made the comment I quoted! And that too was probably taken out of context!

I've seen what she said and it is completely unworkable and actually, imo, is incredibly confused.

The notion is to give a child the notion that their response matters from an early age. But there's a huge problem here because there will be times, as a parent, where you have to ignore your child's blatant and insistent responsof non-consent.

Take my dd. From a newborn, she screamed her head off if she had to put her arms down sleeves. No matter how we approached it, she would scream and struggle. So as parents, we had to ignore it because newborns can't be partially naked in the depths of a northern winter. And we are always going to have to ignore it until she gets to an age where it doesn't matter so much if she gets cold and she has the verbal skills to tell us so.

So if we follow this advice, we have a paradox where a child's response matters (theoretically to set up a culture of consent), but then also a situation where that response, by default, will be ignored, thus teaching the child what?

The whole notion is nonsense; it negates itself in practice because parents, to be parents, have to override their children's responses in a whole range of situations.