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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Janice Turner to have a word with Alice Thomson?

29 replies

Freespeecher · 09/05/2018 12:55

From Thommo's take on Genderquake in today's Times:

"Feminists debating on Woman's Hour or Mumsnet seem trans-fixed. When Germaine Greer suggests trans women can't join the girls' club, she sounds more like an intolerant, regressive UKIP member than the author of The Female Eunuch".

OP posts:
Shampooeeee · 09/05/2018 13:00

It reads to me as if she has friends with trans children and is trying her very best not to offend anyone.

PositivelyPERF · 09/05/2018 13:07

she sounds more like an intolerant, regressive UKIP member A bit like some of the trans people on the panel, then!

can't join the girls' club Why would transwomen want to join a girl’s club? You mean she believes men can’t become WOMEN. That’s true, they can’t. Your welcome to give up YOUR rights but I’ll fight until my last breath to protect women’s rights. Now fuck off you sycophant.

PositivelyPERF · 09/05/2018 13:07

Your = you’re

TerfsUp · 09/05/2018 13:07

What PositivelyPERF said. With bells on.

Wanderabout · 09/05/2018 13:27

I disagree utterly with Alice Thimson's column today (and also think it was confused and badly written).

But am behind newspapers carrying a range of views in this and any debate.

Just a shame Pink News, Guardian, Independent etc don't have more open debate.

Freespeecher · 09/05/2018 13:35

Wanderabout

I agree with you - an echo chamber for either side does nobody any good. My problem with the article is more about her frantic avoidance of the multiple elephants in the room (all with trunks intact).

OP posts:
Wanderabout · 09/05/2018 13:59

It was not an article well acquainted with logic, clear definitions or facts.

R0wantrees · 09/05/2018 14:14

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/the-show-about-sex-every-parent-should-see-kxpc9v0nn
extract:

"The intensity of the debate around gender now feels seismic. I remember writing about it a few years ago when it hadn’t yet become a divisive issue. A family court judge mentioned that there were an increasing number of cases of teenagers wanting to transition against their parents’ wishes. At the time it seemed like a legal and medical conundrum.

Now it has become a faultline. Feminists debating on Woman’s Hour or Mumsnet seem trans-fixed. When Germaine Greer suggests trans women can’t join the girls’ club, she sounds more like an intolerant, regressive Ukip member than the author of The Female Eunuch."

AbsintheFriends · 09/05/2018 14:16

It's been noted several times on this board that Woman's Hour have entirely avoided the trans debate.

Lazy journalism.

Igneococcus · 09/05/2018 14:19

Here is a link with a share token:
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-show-about-sex-every-parent-should-see-kxpc9v0nn?shareToken=e3e931e2a4f5f64cd38dfebd59adb787

It seems so poorly reasoned, it's like she has only a very superficial understanding what this debate is about.

ErrolTheDragon · 09/05/2018 14:37

There are one or two parts I do agree with - the bit about school uniform, and '
An increasing number of children, particularly teenage girls, are binding their breasts, taking drugs and preparing for surgery to allow them to transition. Perhaps if they weren’t categorised when young they might not feel the need to make such a drastic, potentially irreversible decision.'

And 'Instead of asking people whether they use one of a multitude of titles, no one should have to state their gender, whether on their passport or their Facebook page. Eventually the information shouldn’t be necessary for applications to university or work,'

Yup. What business is anyone's 'gender'? Of course, it will be necessary to know peoples sex for occupations where that matters, and until equality has been reached, for accurate statistics.

But she seems to have badly conflated gender and sex. (No, gender is never an issue in competitive sports but sex absolutely is).

R0wantrees · 09/05/2018 14:38

Woman's Hour
I've copied my comment from:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3236107--MNHQ-Another-one-in-your-midst-Title-edited-by-MNHQ?pg=8

Woman's Hour episode Friday 27/4 is worth listening to (if missed) as it focuses on impact of social media & misogyny in two segments,

'Manosphere'
"This week Alek Minassian was arrested and accused of killing 10 people in Toronto when he drove his van into them. Just before the attack, he posted praise on social media for the 'incel rebellion' - an online community of men united by their inability to convince women to have sex with them. The incel rebellion is just one of a number of men's rights groups that have been accused of vulgar sexism, under the umbrella collective of the 'manosphere'. We hear from Mike Wendling an assistant editor at BBC Trending, and Ruby Lott-Lavigna an online journalist who's spent time undercover exploring the manosphere and the people behind it."

'Take back ConTroll'
"We've brought together four women who've been abused and trolled online to following their journey to Take Back ConTROLL. We partnered them with the advertising agency Mother, to see if they could help them reclaim their identity online. We will reveal on Monday what they've come up with . Today we hear Kelly's story. In January 2017 she received a Facebook message from a stranger containing intimate photos of herself. She reported the crime and her ex-partner was found guilty of sharing the sexually explicit images."
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09zt3qq

especially in relation to Catherine Bennett's article the previous weekend:
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/29/violent-misogyny-not-confined-to-internet-incels

Igneococcus · 09/05/2018 14:48

*Newest | Oldest | Most Recommended
Peter Mcparlin 3 hours ago

In the follow up programme with Cathy Newman-Germaine Greer , 80 years, old looked dazed and confused.Unable to remember her previous trans phobic comments ( very ugly ) and appearing on a tv show and making them . Hopefully she will now move away from media and publicity.
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1RecommendReply

Alice Thomson 1 hour ago

@Peter Mcparlin I agree Peter, she was once a remarkable voice, perhaps better if she now stepped aside. *

Ugh, could Alice Thomson be any more condescending?
She is replying to comments, but only to ones that either agree with her or very easy ones. She doesn't engage with any of the other commentators, at least at the moment, maybe she is typing furiously right now.

flowersonthepiano · 09/05/2018 15:14

“More than 300 Labour members have quit the party over the inclusion of transgender women on all-women shortlists”

This is because we do not have equal representation of men and women in parliament. All women shortlists are meant to address this. How can they if they include men?

“Many of those protesting are liberal in almost every other area of their lives. Their feuding does little to help people like those in Genderquake who are trying to come to terms with their sexuality or gender. We need to become more accepting, rather than feel threatened by others’ lives; by obsessing over gender identity we are doing exactly what we should avoid, putting everyone into smaller and smaller boxes.”

Quite the opposite! Saying if you wish to act in at stereotypically feminine way you must be a woman, and if you act in a stereotypically masculine way you must be a man is putting everyone into boxes. Saying that whatever your biology is you should be able to express your self in a way that feels comfortable to you is not putting people into boxes.

In my mind, the major difference between the gender critical and non-gender critical viewpoints is the notion that your body should be physically transformed to match your gender identity. The only time that makes sense is if you have severe gender dysphoria, and then such a decision should be carefully explored under clinical supervision. For everyone else it is a choice, like any other type of cosmetic surgery.

“Not every child sits easily at their appointed end of the blue for boys, pink for girls spectrum and the children in the middle have increasingly struggled.”

Why have they increasingly struggled? Could it be the insistence that everyone must fit into a box?

“The answer is to talk less about gender.”

Good. Ban Mermaids.

“We shouldn’t need all-women shortlists in politics.”

No, we shouldn’t. Unfortunately we do.

“Everyone has unisex loos at home, why not in public places? Changing rooms should all have cubicles so that they can also be unisex.”

This makes sense to me (but I know others feel differently). But if changing rooms don’t have cubicles, they must be segregated by sex, not gender.

“Calling friends of my children “they” rather than he or she has been surprisingly easy.”

I’m still struggling with pronouns. I am a very polite person. It feels wrong to me not to use preferred pronouns. At the same time, it reinforces the notion that gender trumps sex in how we define ourselves. Worse, if it becomes a legal requirement, it is enforced language.

“It’s the same with uniforms: all pupils should be allowed to choose between skirts and trousers.”

Agree.

“Swimming pools shouldn’t be segregated. I swim in the Serpentine in Hyde Park and it’s never bothered anyone that both sexes are diving in together.”

What about those with faith-based objections? Tough?

“In some sports where strength and speed are involved, gender is an issue at a competitive level but many schools can have mixed teams and pupils shouldn’t be forced into playing netball or rugby just because of their chromosomes.”

Nobody should be forced to play any sport. Girls shouldn’t have to compete with boys. It is difficult enough to engage girls in sport without putting another disincentive in the form of having to compete against transgirls with the unfair advantages of their male biology.

“This gender obsession has perhaps driven more young people towards feeling the need to say they are gender-queer or non-binary. One surgeon privately explained that he is now removing nipples from some twentysomethings who want to become androgynous.”
“An increasing number of children, particularly teenage girls, are binding their breasts, taking drugs and preparing for surgery to allow them to transition. Perhaps if they weren’t categorised when young they might not feel the need to make such a drastic, potentially irreversible decision.”

This I agree with...

“Instead of asking people whether they use one of a multitude of titles, no one should have to state their gender, whether on their passport or their Facebook page. Eventually the information shouldn’t be necessary for applications to university or work, where everyone should be paid according to their job description. Even Playboy has already taken a step, changing its tag from “Entertainment for Men” to “Entertainment for All”. Now it just needs to change its name.”

This I mostly agree with too; although, we still need to collect sex-based data to be able to understand sex-based issues.

In a world without inequality, gender blindness would be wonderful, but we’re not there yet.

ErrolTheDragon · 09/05/2018 15:23

“Everyone has unisex loos at home, why not in public places?

Er... the clue is in the word 'public'. HmmWe choose who we allow into our homes. They are private places.

OnTheList · 09/05/2018 15:55

One surgeon privately explained that he is now removing nipples from some twentysomethings who want to become androgynous.

Erm, I have never heard of this. Why on earth do people need nipples removed to be androgynous?!

Not every child sits easily at their appointed end of the blue for boys, pink for girls spectrum and the children in the middle have increasingly struggled.

Its gender critical people who support kids like this. Whereas others...say that a boy who sits near the pink end should actually be on blockers as he is a girl Hmm

ErrolTheDragon · 09/05/2018 16:10

The answer is to talk less about gender

Unfortunately, we can't while gender is being reified and made out to be important. We need to get rid of gender stereotypes. Let kids be kids, let toys be toys ... be gender critical. But don't conflate gender and sex, sex is real and does matter.

Ereshkigal · 09/05/2018 16:15

Er... the clue is in the word 'public'. We choose who we allow into our homes. They are private places.

The obtuseness of this argument!

FermatsTheorem · 09/05/2018 16:20

Argh!

"It’s not: I know more people who have transitioned in Devon than in London. The local transgender tree surgeon scales the branches in a long dress with glittery nail varnish and no one comments even for health and safety reasons."

Because of course a dress is appropriate wear to perform tree surgery in. And it's what women wear to do their womanly tree surgery, so of course if you wanted to signal that you were a woman, you'd climb a tree in a fucking dress.

Can she not see how bloody regressive this whole thing is? Did she not follow the "dressed like a woman" hashtag on twitter when a load of kick ass women responded to some Republican numpty by posting what they wore to work (my favourite was a mother-son pair of police officers, dressed identically in order to go out on the beat, with the caption "Here I am, dressed like a woman. And here is my son, dressed like a man.")

OnTheList · 09/05/2018 16:25

Unfortunately, we can't while gender is being reified and made out to be important. We need to get rid of gender stereotypes. Let kids be kids, let toys be toys ... be gender critical. But don't conflate gender and sex, sex is real and does matter.

Indeed. It astounds me at times that some seem unable, or unwilling, to see this.

merrymouse · 09/05/2018 16:51

If being a woman was like joining a club you could leave the club.

R0wantrees · 09/05/2018 17:54

Germaine Greer in a 2015 Newsnight interview:

StarkStaring · 09/05/2018 18:00

I found her column all over the place too. And I can bet my last 2p that if it were her own child seeking surgery and hormones she wouldn't be so giddy about it all.

PositivelyPERF · 09/05/2018 18:07

She’s fucking brilliant! I agree with every single word she says. 👏

PositivelyPERF · 09/05/2018 18:09

I should clarify, GG is fucking brilliant, not that other handmaiden.