Uncomfortable about unisex toilets at work

[Onlyinanemergency]

My workplace is moving to new premises and all the toilets are to be unisex. Apparently the bathrooms consist of several floor-to-ceiling cubicals opening out onto shared sinks. There is then a large window onto a public corridor so that the sink area can be seen from outside the bathroom. There are 3 of these bathrooms, one on each floor of the building, as well as 3 single disabled toilets. The architects have obviously put a lot of thought into creating toilets which are unisex but also fairly safe and private, yet I still feel really uncomfortable about the idea. Particularly about not being given a choice. Am I wrong?

I really don't know the basis of her view, R0wantrees. Only that it does not seem to be an AU/UK one, which are similar, but the first has a rather nasty accent.

DD1 goes to a fairly new secondary school about 7 years old.

The loos there have huge opening with no door straight onto a corridors into a big very wide room with a double set of sinks in the middle - down both sides are floor to ceiling cubicles one side boys one girls. On girl’s side visible from all the room and from corridor are the tampax machines.

The school really likes the layout – no one can hide in the loos and as they are so visible bullying and smoking are apparently out.

Can’t say it’s a layout I’d prefer but it’s what is there and all the teenagers seem to manage.

One of the parents going round said they’d seen plans like this at other new builds so I wonder if it’s a spreading idea.

We also don't treat people's fear of dogs by forcing them into enclosed spaces with unknown ones.

"Afraid of dogs? Here, spend some time with my attack-trained German Shepard" is pretty much what I hear, forcing ALL women and girls to share spaces with unknown males, when so many have been the victims of male sexual violence. Just not on.

Not all German Shepherds!

Which is true but is also fuck all help to someone who's scared of them.

My hunch at the time was she may have been making more of a comment about some groups of Englishmen's particular sexual interest in toilets, defecation, urination etc....

Oh ok R0wantrees, that perhaps makes a little more sense. But don't underestimate aussie blokes' perversions - they won't be left behind you know!

My college had unisex toilets and I hated it. Normally the ladies room is like a little reprieve. Wether you're changing during a nightmarishly heavy period or need to be sick or have a good cry you can pretty much do it and not feel too self conscious. Other women are always very understanding and go through the same things. Say for example you want to wash your moon cup in the sink or the sanitary bin in your cubicle was overfilling you could just do it at the sinks/thrown it in the main bin wrapped in tissue. I'd feel so so uncomfortable doing this around men, especially if it also open out onto a corridor. And what about applying lippy. I think women should always have the options to use a separate toilet.

In other countries, girls aren't going to school when they have their period because they only have shared toilets. It will be interesting to see if affects attendance at our schools too.

We're not "just one of the boys", our different needs should be taken into account and they shouldn't hold us back.

Yes - started a miscarriage in a work toilet. Transactivists are cruel to remove privacy from women.

Same here, except it started at home and was just a bit like a oeriod to start with, and it went on for days so I couldn't ask for all that time off work. I also was not sure if it was actually a miscarriage or just random bleeding and I was booked in for a scan a week in the future to check. Well as it happened, it was a miscarriage, and it completed in the loos at work. Started getting really really bad cramps and then it happened. There was actually another woman in the loos who was so supportive. Maybe men would have been supportive too, who knows. But I know I felt fairly comfortable with the woman there, where I am quite sure I would not have felt comfortable with a man. I think I would have preferred to be totally on my own mind. But the woman stayed with me after and just let me use her as a sounding board for my thoughts. So I appreciated that.

I don't think many male people think of things like this at all. Well, why would they really as they won['t ever experience it..things like this won't even cross their minds unless their partners have ever gone through it.

If you have a muslim colleague who wants to perform wudu, she won't be able to in these toilets. If your menstrual blood leaks onto your clothing, you won't be able to wash your clothes in the sink and dry them under the hand dryer*. If you miscarry, there will be no privacy for cleaning up.

Have you raised this with your employer and the architects?

• Does anyone else object to the modern trend to cold-air dryers and airblades that don't dry your clothes?

@ratrolypoly If you don't want the little vent holes under the rim to block and cause leaks, it's best to wash them with water. Also, emptying into the toilet bowl runs the risk of dropping it into the loo, which happened to me once. I was luckily at home so could wash and boil the cup, but at work you wouldn't have that option.

AssignedPuurfect that is one of modern life's mysteries I fear: why are we so very different from females in the developing world? Written like that, I hear angry voices in my own head shouting 'we aren't at all different you bigot!' Yet, as you say, we are being treated differently now. Someone posted earlier about girls in a truant unit (maybe not quite the correct term) absenting during their period. They are already vulnerable and will become more so because of these policies. Girls here will miss one quarter of their education, like in the developing world. What will the cost be to the girls, our society, our economy?

I know I am a bit late to this thread but for all the ‘mens toilets are way messier the women’s toilets’ brigade then I suggest you talk to anyone who is to clean a pub or club toilet at the end of the night. From the numerous crap student jobs I had working in the nighttime economy there was always piss and shit where it should not be in both the men’s and ladies toilets although the latter always has the added Brucie Bonus if used sanitary produces on the floor or on some occasions smeared up the walls.

I worked in pubs almost all of my adult life. I ran pubs at one stage. It was almost always the male loos that were fucking gross. The womens were gross at times, but almost every night there was something totally vile in the mens, ranging from shit in the urinal, to shit up the wall, to bogeys up the wall, to hockle on the floo. We even got a neat little poo left right next to the toilet once, so someone had hung their arse over the side of the loo, though it had been covered with a piece of toilet paper (not sure if by the shitter or by someone else) so I thought I was just picking up loo roll and stuck my finger in it, which was lovely. Another time there was a pile of what looked like pubes left on the back of the loo, stuck in chewing gum. Along with the usual not flushing the loo, peeing on the floor (not necessarily on purpose, as it was right infront of the urinal so could be aiming issues) that I assume is usual in all public loos.

The problems in the ladies seemed to be mainly stuff that could legitimately be put down to human error. Sanitary products next to the bin instead of in it. Shit on the back of the loo seat. Blood droplets on the seat. Puke on the floor (though it had clearly been cleaned up hastily, but not properly) and such. The worst there was shite literally all over the inside of the loo, and not flushed at all. Which is still not actually on purpose. The not flushing is vile yes, but its not like they purposely did it on the floor.

So yeah, both were vile, but it seemed to be only the mens that had vile stuff on purpose.

I would expect women who believe women should have equal rights to me to be wanting to do things that will actually help achieve that.

How do you think having unisex loos will help achieve equality?

I don't get this at all. Sorry I just don't. yes periods are still stigmatized. I don't see how they will become less stigmatized by unisex loos, where men can observe us washing bloody hands and will know when we are on our periods (generally so they can say to each other, oh X is on her period, thats why she is snappy today and such) and so on. And pretending that men will not do this is daft. Even when they do not know when we are on, they still will answer with 'ooh are you on your period' or something to a mild telling off for something they did wrong.

But I see you have left us to our 'circle jerk' now, so I don't imagine you will explain

In other countries, girls aren't going to school when they have their period because they only have shared toilets.

UNESCO’s 2018 gender review states that single sex toilets are desperately needed to address girls concerns over privacy.

I would really love to see the impact assessment undertaken and evidence collected which shows that girls in this country don’t have these concerns. (Spoiler: there is none)

On the rinsing mooncups thing: we all know why loos have sinks near them, right? because everyone who has used one has to wash their hands immediately afterwards, because of faeces and urine mainly. Yes sometimes menstrual blood; maybe snot if you have blown your nose in there a bit messily :) but it's all about gross and infectious bodily fluids being washed away with soap and water. That's what the sinks are for and that it is why it is necessary to use them. Freaking out because you can't fill a sink in a loo with water and expect it to be clean is just weird, and isn't caused by mooncups. Of course they're not clean; they've been put there for people to wash shit off their hands.

Rat, it is really important not to conflate a desire or need for privacy with shame. Lots of things are private but not shameful and you do not do anyone any favours by thinking that a need for privacy is unhealthy.

Example: people who are not ashamed of shagging their husbands do not do it when anyone else is in the room.
True - some people are ashamed of sex - but not everyone.

People who are not ashamed of their bodies aren't all happy nudists. True, if you are ashamed of your body you can't be a happy nudist; but there is a whole set of people who are not ashamed of their bodies, will be naked happily in certain contexts like single sex gym showers, but wouldn't dream of going to a nudist beach or answering the door with no clothes on.

Rat, it is really important not to conflate a desire or need for privacy with shame. Lots of things are private but not shameful and you do not do anyone any favours by thinking that a need for privacy is unhealthy.

This ^^

It’s not about shame. It’s about privacy and privacy at its heart is about safety.

I’m not ashamed of having a shit, using tampons, or peeing. Hell I haven’t been ashamed when I was vomiting my guts up in the office loo with hyperemesis.

I just don’t want to do it in public. Men and women often feel more comfortable with bodily functions in single sex environments.

Generally while engaging in a bodily function you’re a bit incapacitated. You can’t verbally respond when you’re being sick and you can’t fight someone off while you’re peeing. At some deep level, this translates even now to a need to be alone, or only with those who cannot harm you, when doing these things.

@AnchorDownDeepBreath

On the mooncup issue - it is rare to see people changing them in public because most women only need to change them every 12 hours, meaning you can usually do it at home before and after work. However, some people like me have days with particularly heavy flows and may need to change once or twice in the middle of the day too. Even if I skip rinsing the cup out and just wipe it off and reuse, I'm going to come out of that stall looking like I've just ritually slaughtered a lamb with my bare hands.
And while most men are cool with the general concept of periods, having worked in a male dominated industry I would never ever want to let on that I was on my period. No way.

My work has a similar set up, separate ladies and mens stall but with the sinks in a shared area. Which means I have to use pads on the days I'm working and having a heavy flow. I'm very not happy about being forced to do that for the sake of saving on the cost of 2 extra basins.

BTW am I the only one here who's ever had to wash an item of clothing in the bathroom sink and dry it under the hand dryer before putting it back on?

Bloodmagic no other posters on the thread have done the same washing items in the sink. Some posters are virtuous and never done it and its never happened and if it has then .

Sorry your in the -superfluid bose-Einstein consomethingorother- heavy period club to.

Thank you for so many thoughtful replies. This has really helped me get straight in my mind exactly what I object to and why. I completely agree with what people have said about desire for privacy versus shame. For example, I am happy to speak about periods in front of my male colleagues to try to destigmatise menstruation. But I can choose when it's most appropriate to do this. What I think I object to most about these new unisex toilets is the lack of choice. I feel it has been forced upon me. Even if, as some have suggested, it won't be as bad as I think, I feel as though something I felt was my right has been taken from me for no good reason that I can see. Sorry if that IS starting to sound hysterical!

No blood I have too. No male is ever going to experience the particular joy of menstrual flooding and the penguin waddle to the loo.
I'm pretty sure most women wouldn't be happy standing in their pants drying their trousers under the hand dryers in a unisex toilet. But hey. We are just being squeamish.

"What I think I object to most about these new unisex toilets is the lack of choice. I feel it has been forced upon me. Even if, as some have suggested, it won't be as bad as I think, I feel as though something I felt was my right has been taken from me for no good reason that I can see."
No one asked whether we wanted it or not. No one asked if we would mind. No one who was making the decision actually inquired as to what exactly women did in the loos and why they might want privacy. The whole 'we all piss and shit' brigade, who ain't got a clue as regards messy female issues. Who haven't got a clue as regards why the ritual slaughter hands plus drying your knickers over the hand dryer, and rinsing your mooncup at the sink might be a thing. Or miscarriages, or just somewhere to escape to when your hormones are all over the shop, or you just need to escape. Let alone muslim women etc etc.

Nope, it's just women, nothing to see here, whilst ticking the 'gender diversity and inclusion' box on the HR monitoring form................

Although I thought the male students 'dirty protest' at Somerville was quite funny:
timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/uk/oxford-college-in-dirty-protest-over-unisex-toilets/articleshow/64052015.cms

Only i think you hit the nail on the head with your post and condensed pages of posters. No you don't sound hysterical at all but very reasoned and composed.

I'm pretty sure most women wouldn't be happy standing in their pants drying their trousers under the hand dryers in a unisex toilet.

Keep a spare set at work? I do, as well as underwear & socks in case my stuff gets soaked on the ride in.

As for "having a cry" - sorry, but pretty sure your colleagues don't want to hear that no matter what sex they are.

I was at an event at the weekend, the queue for the women's toilets was huge as always, so there was a mixed queue for the cubicles in the male toilets - going right past the urinals. No one seemed bothered.

Having been to a few festivals as well, I'm pretty sure that the whole "toilet" thing doesn't resonate with most women & thus is seen as "kicking off for the sake of it"....