Pronouns

[Pratchet]

How far will I get at work if I refuse use incorrect pronouns because it is discrimination to force me to support an ideology which is harmful to me? Serious question. Anybody who can help, that would be great.

Also, does anyone at all have an opinion on whether my stance would be strengthened by me saying that forcing me to use incorrect pronouns is disrespectful
A. To me as a woman or
B. To my identity as a woman

Looking for all views. (You're probably all gardening or at the beach while I'm at work refreshing my phone!)

You'll almost certainly get yourself and your employer in trouble if you use incorrect pronouns.

How about just trying to avoid pronouns? I don't think it would be particularly noticeable and would be very difficult to challenge legally. ie use the person's name where possible and 'they' if necessary.
eg 'I asked Lucy if they could join us at the meeting and they said that would be fine.'

I think it would be noticeable to avoid using pronouns. Do you have a trans colleague?

Happy with avoiding but TRA are vindictive and using 'they' would be verboten.

Also, why should I? It's disrespectful and offensive to me to do so.

So I suppose I'm not happy with avoiding.

Also, why should I? It's disrespectful and offensive to me to do so.

Because the trans person will have a good case under the Equality Act 2010 for harassment IMO if you don't. I haven't seen a case yet where misgendering has been tested on ideological grounds, but I wouldn't personally give such a defence any real chance of succeeeding.

Are you saying that it is offensive to you to refer to them in a gender neutral way? If so, could you explain why that is when you have time because I don't think I understand why? I know some people don't like they, them and their because they see them as the pronouns for collective groups, but they are often just used as a gender neutral version of he/she, him/her and his/her in modern usage.

So I suppose I'm not happy with avoiding.

How far does this go? Are you unhappy with using their new name (I'm assuming they have changed names)?

Sex is a protected characteristic too. It's a 'more protected' characteristic than being trans.

There is no law to say that using pronouns is or isn't harassment. I could argue that forcing me to use the wrong pronouns is harassment of me. Which it is.

Why would I be unhappy to use their name. Don't get that.

If it's a colleague or a client I can't see this going well in the current climate. Courtesy is an important part of being professional. Whatever your personal views, making someone feel uncomfortable at work or while using your service puts you in a bad position that you will struggle to defend.

It's offensive and disrespectful because calling a man 'she' forces me to express and submit to the sexist belief that there is such a thing as a 'woman's brain' and that womanhood is a feeling in a man's head.

What about courtesy, respect and lack of discrimination to me as a woman?

What if it's colleagues only: not clients?

I agree that ideologically it's abhorrent to force someone to change the fundamentals of their language to prove a point.

Having said that, and trying to think of anything even vaguely similar what would happen if (for example) you didn't use someone's title? Eg. you didn't call a priest 'father X' or a peer 'Lady Y' - because you weren't catholic, or were a Republican (as in someone who doesn't believe that the royal family should be a royal family, not as in Trump) - ie. if you skipped other courtesies?

Sorry, it's not helpful, but in the current climate it's a really tough choice to make, and I'm trying to find something else similar to grab onto.

Probably better to avoid Pratchet unless you want to mount a legal test case.

BTW Helen - your slimy little account is pathetic. The amount of time you spent policing mumsnet is testament to your committment to your child.

What happened with Jordan Peterson in Canada on this one? I was aware he was threatened with legal sanction if he refused to use his student’s pronouns, but I don’t know how far it went. I know it’s not really relevant to UK law, but just wondered if anyone knew.

Why would I be unhappy to use their name. Don't get that.

I wasn't sure whether if they'd switched from a name which is exclusively used for men (eg Ian) to one that is exclusively used for women (eg Emily) or vice versa you might be unhappy, but I'm glad to hear you are not. If you don't like the gender neutral they/them/their, would you tolerate referring to them by their name instead of pronouns? It can sound clunky but you would be a lot better off tha misgendering them (eg 'I asked Lucy to join us at the meeting and Lucy agreed').

Sex is a protected characteristic too. It's a 'more protected' characteristic than being trans.

It is not more protected in any relevant sense here.

There is no law to say that using pronouns is or isn't harassment. I could argue that forcing me to use the wrong pronouns is harassment of me. Which it is.

I have seen Employment Tribunal cases where the law has been interpreted to say that misgendering is harassment. I don't see how you could make an accusation of harassment given that you do have the option of avoiding pronouns (again, I'm still struggling with why they/them/their would be offensive to you).

Avoiding their usage might get easier with practice. Perhaps try it with non-trans colleagues at first and then none one should take offence; you could even come across as being really woke when in fact, you're being subversive

I spent years avoiding calling my MIL 'Mum'.

What if it's colleagues only: not clients?

It doesn't matter. They are both protected under the Equality Act.

It's the equivalent of being forced to call someone sir, or lord. I would retaliate and change my own pronouns to he but make no visible changes, point out how ridiculous the whole movement is.

Disturbing: thanks for your response. The analogy is more like: refusing to call a layman a priest, or refusing to call somebody a professor, even though they aren't one.

Legally speaking I think it could potentially be harassment, as it could create a humiliating environment for a trans woman to be referred to as “he” or vice versa.

Thanks assigned. Mermaids Helen?

Women are more protected than trans under the Equality Act. Did you miss that the first time I said it.

Mctufty: but couldn't I argue it's a humiliating environment for me? Which it would be?

Sea horses: yyy. I'm considering it.

I would avoid pronouns mainly I think if the person was a gloaty narcissistic tra type but if a decent person I would use their chosen pronoun to be respectful so long as it wasnt a made up one like ze etc. I think, depending on where you work, you would get in a lot of trouble.