Why can't you *feel* like a woman?

[polkadotwellies]

I might be wrong but after reading some of the threads it seems some woman can't feel like a woman: Womanhood is merely biological.

I am biologically a woman and feel like a woman. I just wonder why that's such a contested concept?

I don't even know who I am half the time so can't say I feel like a woman. I've been told I should have been born a boy so many times I can't count. Weird thing is I'm not sure why. Maybe I don't fit into the stereotypical role. I don't wear makeup or care less about pink sparkly stuff, I'm a complete loner and about as emotional as a brick . Who knows but I definetly don't feel like a woman. Oh and thanks for getting that awful song by the same name in my head.

tabulahrasa - there is debate about lesbianism (I believe), whether it is innate, a choice or bit of both. This contrasts with gays who invariably argue they were born that way.

For argument purposes:
A woman self-identifies as a lesbian after she realises she is attracted to women. I am in no position to say, no, you can't feel that way, look at your sexual organs.

A man self-identifies as a woman after he realises he feels like a woman. I am in no position to say, no, you can't feel that way, look at your sexual organs.

“A woman self-identifies as a lesbian after she realises she is attracted to women.”

Except she’s identifying as a lesbian because she’s attracted to women... the attraction is determining her identity.

She’s not identifying as a lesbian despite never being attracted to a woman but thinking she might feel like one anyway.

A woman self-identifies as a lesbian after she realises she is attracted to women. I am in no position to say, no, you can't feel that way, look at your sexual organs

Of course you aren't, because looking her sexual organs makes no difference to whether she is a lesbian or not

A man self-identifies as a woman after he realises he feels like a woman. I am in no position to say, no, you can't feel that way, look at your sexual organs

Yes you are, because you can tell him "how you think you feel is your own affair, although how you think you can "feel like a woman" without ever having been one is beyond me, but look at your sexual organs, you are clearly a man".

What we need is a return to reality. What we need to say to trans people, and everyone else is this: you can feel however you like. You can present however you like. You can wear what you like and be addressed as you like and act as you like. You should have the same respect and acceptance as anyone else, you should be left alone to live as you choose....up to the point where you want us all to say that you have actually changed sex and that feeling like a woman but being a man gives you access to any and all of womens spaces.

MsBeaujangles
I think the term delusional carries all sorts of baggage so I can understand objections to its use. The issue relates to conflating observable external characteristics with the subjective experiences one has a result of those characteristic.

Indeed. If the objective reality of being a woman leads exclusively to the subjective experience of being a woman, than no man could ever feel like a woman. I don't know where to even begin testing that hypothesis. For now, it may be wise to accept TGs at their word, without giving them all the status and protections that women need because of their biology. Perhaps we should have two boxes on birth certificates: objective sex, subjective gender.

Our sexed bodies impact on many areas of life and where this is the case it is nonsense to suggest that there is no difference between someone who has a female-sexed body and someone who has a male-sexed body, especially when the rationale for this is based on feelings and beliefs.

Indeed. I don't think anyone is denying females and males have different lived experiences. By extension, I presume that TGs will have a lived experience that is neither the same as most men, nor the same as most women.

Where sex is irrelevant to any given situation, I see no harm in people having a gender identity or not having one. What does it matter?

Indeed.

I only feel like a woman when my biology comes into play. Like when I have my period, or being pregnant, or giving birth, or breastfeeding, having a contraceptive coil fitted, having a smear, being paid less than a man, etc... those are things that make me feel like a woman. The rest of the time I just feel like a human being. I don’t even know if my sentience is gendered. That’s a bit of a mind scrambler.

Bit of a tangent this, but one other thing I’ve always wondered is whether male to female transgender people have to take a pay cut at work once they take on a female identity?

I can identify as a tree if I felt like it, and decide to live as one, it doesn’t mean I actually know what a tree feels like... the chances are though nobody would actually object to me standing in my own garden being a tree - there’s only an issue if I dig up next doors’ tree and take its place.

Love it!

I can identify as a tree if I felt like it, and decide to live as one, it doesn’t mean I actually know what a tree feels like... the chances are though nobody would actually object to me standing in my own garden being a tree - there’s only an issue if I dig up next doors’ tree and take its place.

Or my roots undermine the foundations of the house next door

I can identify as a tree if I felt like it, and decide to live as one, it doesn’t mean I actually know what a tree feels like... the chances are though nobody would actually object to me standing in my own garden being a tree - there’s only an issue if I dig up next doors’ tree and take its place.

Yes! Perfect.

I am a women who feels no dysphoria over the thought of myself as a women, in the same way as I have no dysphoria over the fact I have blue eyes.

This means that those two facts don’t cause me an discomfort, but the feeling is not innate, it is a direct consequence of the initial thought. I would posit that your feeling like a women is simply having no dysphoria over that thought - you recognize it as a truth about yourself.

And the argument with TG people is that, because they do not recognize the truth of their body, somehow this means that it is not intact the truth of their body; the discomfort proves that they are the opposite sex.

One of the main reasons I can’t get behind that ideology is that I have, felt fairly extreme dysphoria over my breast size. They are large and since I developed I have always had a feeling that something went wrong, that they didn’t “suit” me, they were physically uncomfortable and I felt that I am innately a small breasted women etc. I caused me a lot of psychological torment over the years. Now I won’t bore you with all the reasons why I felt that way, but they were mostly to do with how I was treated, what I could do and wear (or couldn’t wear) etc.

Once I examined my thinking (which was neither a quick nor easy process) I realised that my body wasn’t wrong; my body just WAS. These are my genetics, this is how I developed - it’s neutral.

Biology is neutral. Society is not. We all have to find a way to live within those parameters (or change them if they are unfair).

"Sarah, you base your accusation of delusion to the fact that gender doesn't exist in the minds of people. (correct me if I've misattributed your words). You may be 100% correct. Or you may be wrong. Not believing in internal gender feelings yourself doesn't preclude others from feeling them. At some basic, philosophical level, we can never know what goes on the mind of any other person. I am straight - I can never get into the mind, feelings or thoughts (other than through empathy) of a lesbian. It is no basis for me to deny what lesbians say they feel."

You could identify as a lesbian though, and the that would be an indisputabel fact, and then you could join lots of lesbian groups and speak "as a lesbian" and so on.

Oh and I just re-read the OP and realised it says:

"Womanhood is merely biological."

Merely?

Since when is female boilogy "merely".

If there must be a hierarchy, a gauge, a contest, a measuring up, then of the two sexes, the female one is surely the less "mere". Our bodies can go through a hell of a lot in a lifetime, 3 stages of life rather than two, monthly bleeding, and for most there's pregnancy, maybe childbirth, BF. There is nothing "mere" about the female body.

And on top of that, while men get to see their bodies as a simple tool, a method to transport their consciousness around, girls are lumbered with not only the biological reproductive issues, but also a desire in society to judge us, to see us as a selcection of body parts to be leered at, judged, pursued. This leads us to being painfully aware of our bodies (generalisation) and if surveys are to be believed, mostly fundamentally unhappy with and even detached from them, for long periods of time.

But no, it's merely a female body, not important, not nearly as important as someon'es internal feelings, and definitely not important enough to act as a locator of similarity across a group. There is no need to have a name for cunty people as a group - why would there be? The mere cuntiness is irrelevant to anything to do with anything.

I don't feel like a woman anymore than I feel like a 30 year old. I just am. Sometimes I am aware of my biology (pregnancy, breastfeeding, periods) but those weren't feelings just things. There are times I'm treated differently because I'm a woman and I am aware of that too but that isn't a feeling either. Really the internal 'me' doesn't have a sex. I'm always surprised to hear my voice on a recording because it is a female voice, my internal voice (the way I hear myself in my head, if that makes sense) doesn't sound that way. It doesn't sound like a man's voice either. Maybe if I was given an objective definition of what it means to feel like a woman, maybe I'd be able to say, oh yes actually I do feel that way, but I can't think of any definition of woman as a feeling that that wouldn't rely on stereotypes.

Ok I'm going to try again without mentioning the gender delusion if that is forbidden. (Someone tell Richard Dawkins he is not welcome here.) I have been misunderstood. I do believe that most people have a gender identity and that very many people believe that they were born with it. If gender is a social construct (and a great deal of evidence suggests it is) then they are mistaken . That is not to say it does not exist in the mind.

...It just develops socially

If it develops socially then it is not binary and it is separate from sex whether the person is cis, trans, gender critical (who are not cis) or GNC. And some people do not have much gender at all in their identity. Others have a lot of it

But it all develops socially, through external, followed by related internal narratives.

So it is perfectly possible for someone who has repeated messages imposed upon them about what masculinity is and what femininity is to internalise another gender, other than the one people expect of them for a variety of different reasons and think they were born that way. He or she is no more mistaken than the person who thinks they are born cis. It just reflects a misunderstanding of what gender is and how it develops

Random on pay cuts I read an article in the FT or Times in the last week or so where an academic at a US university changed sex male to female and another female to male. The article was about how they were then treated. The one who moved to female found their research taken less seriously and it was harder to show they were good. the one who became male suddenly got a lot of pay rises.

They exchanged information on how they were treated. It was fascinating and of course shows the advantages given to men. Perhaps I should now I am post menopause change to male for financial reasons alone.

What a surprise!

Xenia - how would you deal with the voice thing for calls though?

I do wonder sometimes about changing my name to Chris or Alex. A neutral name.

I think if people stopped defining women by pink/sparkly/high heels/dresses/make up and started defining us by the things that actually make us women, then a lot of the confusion will stop.
How many posts on this thread start ‘I don’t like make up or wear pink’. That’s not what ‘woman’ is.

I watch a lot of YouTube vloggers and the amount of transwomen (all late teens/early 20s) that seem to think that all being a woman is, is wearing a pretty dress, having an Essex blow dry and contouring your face is ridiculous. And don’t get me started on ‘lady penis’ (wfaf?!?)

I feel angry on behalf of actual diagnosed transsexuals that they are now lumped in with this new wave gender fluid trend. There IS a difference and we should be able to say there is without being labelled as transphobic.

Most of the time I feel like a 15 year old but when I look in the mirror I see someone who looks more like a 50 year old - neither the feeling or the look change the biological fact that I am 45.
I feel like giving up work every day but that does not change the fact that I need to work to pay the mortgage, bills etc etc
I feel like eating pizzas and nachos every day but the fact is I can't because I would feel pretty unhealthy and the fact is that in the long term I would become unhealthy.
Luckily my parents taught me that most of the time how I feel really isn't relevant, it's fine to feel like something but the reality of life is that feelings don't magically become facts.

Polka, I wish I had found this thread earlier because I haven't had time to read all 7 pages, but my sex is female and yes, I do feel like a woman. I can't explain it or what it means, or even what it feels like.
But I still feel like a woman. I don't think I am particularly feminine, dress like shit most of the time, have an annual haircut, and so on, but I definitely feel female. I heard a transwoman say that she was called on publicly in her younger life to answer 'what does it feel like to be a woman' and she replied, 'well, i can't say. It feels like me' . I get that, I really do.

I agree with A Woman's Place and I agree that women suffer disadvantage and discrimination and abuse because of their sex and not their personal gender identity. And that is why we need to preserve sex based rights and protections.
I still feel like a woman. I just do.

I still feel like a woman. I just do.

That is great. How do you know you are one though?