Men in feminism.

[Jeanhatchet]

They are invariably a distraction at best.

We are taught to accommodate their needs and they are socialised in turn to feel entitled to us feeding them with both food and knowledge.

I have seen too many "nice" ** men .... y'know the "good" kind .... the "my man is different though - he gets it" kind hang around and place themselves at the centre of feminist circles with the end result that women spend time stroking their gigantic egos and falling over ourselves to bash women who won't.

Then.... they begin to offer themselves as goddamn experts. Also - I've seen lots of abusers hoppety skippety around women in this way.

Men who want to be better men can just go away and do it. Women have written enough about how they can do this. In fact I'm sure some man saw a woman blog about it and then rephrased it better. The men could go and find his stuff probs.

Oh Em Gee is it another Dawkins with a "Dear Muslima" letter for the uppity women?

The very same, I think!

Xenophile

Sigh.

The thread is called 'Men in feminism'.

I'm a man, talking about feminism.

Not saying things you agree with is not derailment

Please reference my earlier points to Babel about disagreement.

This is the root of the issue I think

I'm not trying to control you

This is a conversation in FWR about what women think about men in feminism isn't it?

Women are expressing their views on that topic. As they have every right to do, given that feminism is about women.

Your role in feminism is listening. And learning. Then go away and do what you can to improve things.

Patriarchy thinks feminism is about him, not destroying patriarchy, cuz patriarchy.
Bless.

Penis Feminism™.

An interesting idea, I'll grant you. But not one I plan on signing up to.

Babel and Xenophile I've had those kinds of conversations too. Had a really interesting conversation recently about an Egyptian feminist novelist. So much great feminist thinking coming from Arab countries!

well our friend here is certainly doing his upmost to support the assertion in the OP.

one of those guys who when they get on a roll you have to put your hand up, say can i just stop you there, and walk away.

The thread is called 'Men in feminism'.

And the first line of the OP is 'They are invariably a distraction at best. '

well our friend here is certainly doing his upmost to support the assertion in the OP.

So, I guess useful contributions in a way?

Men who want to be better men can just go away and do it. Women have written enough about how they can do this. In fact I'm sure some man saw a woman blog about it and then rephrased it better. The men could go and find his stuff probs.

They're mostly like little children demanding parental attention - either by being "good" (getting the nipple) or crying for "not being noticed" (getting the cuddle) or by being "naughty" (getting the metaphorical spank). All attention seeking behaviours used by children when they want something.

Most grown adult men have no place in the women's movement because they haven't developed beyond the needy stage.

Hmm. How... vague of you.So your Saudi female friends agree that you are oppressed? As a western woman? Your last post wasn't particularly clear on that point.

I’m talking to her next week at some point - I’ll ask her that exactly:

Do you think western women are oppressed?
Do you think Saudi women are oppressed (I’ve asked her this last one before actually, her answer is ‘broadly yes, by the system, individual mileage varies depending on family and partner)

Is there anything else you’d like me to ask her, bearing in mind we will need to talk about our actual, scientific, patient centred multi million dollar project as well mind ;)

I can ask my Iranian neighbour who fled Iran as well. In fact, I’m going to ask any woman I know from any ‘oh these ladies have it so much worse than you so shut the fuck up you extremist’ background. And maybe my big standard, internet connection owning white colleagues too.

I shall report back next week.

We are taught to accommodate their needs and they are socialised in turn to feel entitled to us feeding them with both food and knowledge.

If you started to argue against my actual positions, rather than the ones you keep creating for me, we might get somewhere.

Oh, I think we've got somewhere. Pretty much exactly where the OP might have predicted, unfortunately.

I suppose you could tell me you have a doctorate in Women Studies or something like that, but how impressive is that? It's not exactly an academically rigorous field. You see, you fell into that one. Your assumption is quite astounding. When a woman tells you she works in academia she must have done a fluffy subject... and of course Women Studies [sic] just have to be fluffy!

Ah well! I suppose you can't help it. You were socialised that way!

Ha ha. It's always kind of fun to watch a man 'argue' in the style of Jordan Peterson. And with such similar content too! But there's a reason Peterson's been called 'the professor of piffle'. This stuff is entertaining, yes. But still piffle.

It's not exactly an academically rigorous field.

Really? Gosh. Of course it’s only studying women’s contribution to/interaction in society so it's fluffy right? What about similar humanities fields - are they rigorous? Or just the ones that deal with women?

Actually women’s studies barely exists any more - it’s now Gender studies. Even women’s studies has been colonised. :( academia is a hard place to be right now, it’s very much infiltrated by the thoight police.

What do you do for a living?

What do you consider academically rigorous?

Yes I will come back and let you know what she says. As I said, we have spoken about this before when we met in person. I know some of her opinions about it but I will ask the question directly. She’s lived most of her life in KSA with a stint in the USA when her husband did a postdoc. I need to talk to her next week at some point anyway.

Babel

Thanks for clarifying your answer.

When you ask your (presumably rich, well educated, married to a westernised man) Saudi friend about the average Saudi woman's view of western women's 'oppression'. Please let us know her opinion.

No doubt it will put me right back in my box.

Oh she's not the right type of Saudi woman? That’s me told then. And her.

Which rule is this, bewilderness? It’s a combo of shut up, doing it wrong, and men always knowing the reasons behind women’s behaviour right?

You know I’m sure that women make up over half of graduates over there? The average Saudi woman IS well educated.

Yes anyway men have loads of really useful insights into feminism. Such as there being no need for it since women aren’t oppressed. Their contributions are incredibly valuable And not at all derailing. You like to derail don’t you?

The eponymous PatriarchyPersonified covers all of the rules regularly.

Most feminst men are the equivalent of brocialists. I think they mean well, but theyre rarely radical or actually do anything.

They don't mean well.

Near every man who I have ever heard say he is a feminist is one of those who is adamant that feminism is for everyone. Its about advancing everyones rights. Its not about women, etc etc. They also tend to 'what about the men' a lot, which is fairly irritating. There was a discussion on another forum about this kind of thing, and every guy who posted on the thread had a different 'poor men' post. Like 'family courts are biased against men, feminism should sort that', 'men commit suicide more often than women' and so on. Along with the usual 'men are not allowed any spaces away from women, but its fine for women to want female only spaces?!?!?!'

Oddly enough, the same male posters are overly accepting of TRAs narrative and think women should budge over. And they tend to get quite aggressive towards women who disagree.

In short, from what I have seen, men only seem to be 'feminists' when they are using it as a way to...get at feminists.

Not all men though, disclaimer thats always needed. Just most from my experience.

Ha! PatriarchyPersonified's response to that list, particularly on points of porn and prostitution illustrate perfectly why I can't be arsed engaging with men in feminism.

Well quite. Thats something else I didn't mention in my post. 'Feminist men' almost always are pro-porn, pro-prostitution and such. Its interesting.

“Feminist men' almost always are pro-porn, pro-prostitution and such. Its interesting.”

Liberal feminists to a man. .

When I was a young woman there were always men who were oh so liberal and right on - and women who admired them. I bet anyone who went to the university in the 70s could name a couple of lecturers who would fit the description....

A book I read which may be of interest to PP.

www.routledge.com/Men-Masculinities-and-Violence-An-Ethnographic-Study/Ellis/p/book/9781138819092