Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Are you scared?

208 replies

Jeanhatchet · 03/05/2018 07:06

I. Am. Terrified.

The pace and scale of the attack on women and specifically feminists is like nothing I have seen in my lifetime.

Women are being arrested for speaking about being female. Women are insulted with derogatory terms for using words referring to their own bodies and the functions of those bodies. Suspended from their own political parties. Hounded from their jobs. Thrown out of their online spaces and denounced as bigots. Prevented from meeting to speak together. Prevented from hiring spaces to speak to each other. Being forced to say things that aren't provably true and that they really don't believe. Called terms that make them unsure of themselves. Gaslighted into accepting those terms. Made to feel guilty for wanting space where they feel safe and that has always been theirs and protected legally. Feeling uncomfortable for wanting to assert their legal rights. Feeling uncomfortable for saying no to male bodied people. Feeling uncomfortable for being lesbian and wanting only female partners. Feeling unsure if they can speak because they are terrified of upsetting a body of people who seem to have more power in every area of their lives even though those people are a tiny tiny minority.

As I just said elsewhere.... some women can take the temperature of the social/political/cultural water and feel their feet getting hot. I hope other women can feel this happening before women as a sex class is boiled alive. It is already uncomfortably hot for women speaking out. We are risking an awful lot.

I continue speaking out. I will be speaking at events wherever I'm invited about what is happening. Am I scared? Damn right I'm scared. Speaking about my body and beliefs about that body has become a revolutionary act.

Rather than ask if I'm scared that women are under such an organised, aggressive and escalating programme of attack I ask this of women who aren't scared .....why aren't you?

OP posts:
noeffingidea · 03/05/2018 11:13

I'm not scared. I think too much power is being given to these people though. I am a bit annoyed by mumsnet at the moment for allowing themselves to be controlled by non members via twitter. Julie Bindel didn't turn around and go home when those protesters tried to block the stairway.

tobee · 03/05/2018 11:25

I would say I'm extremely worried. It's so hard because it's currently like living in some mad alternate reality. I just keep thinking "surely this can't continue?"

Greymisty · 03/05/2018 11:36

I'm not scared. Angry may be. Mostly annoyed. It's so relentless being a woman it's one thing after another from everyday sexism to male violence to women's only shortlist aren't just for biological women. When does it stop?

AngryAttackKittens · 03/05/2018 11:37

The whole thing is a bit Twilight Zone in that who would have believed 10 years ago that rational people would be declaring beardy men who aren't even vaguely attempting to look less male to be female? It's as if once you pass a certain point in terms of suspension of disbelief all bets are off.

GrimSqueaker · 03/05/2018 11:49

What actually really terrifies me is my youngest... she's desperately muddled up with pronouns anyway (and you try fucking googling information on pronoun confusion trying to find out why a 4 year old can't figure out the correct use of he/she these days and not finding morons with blue hair who've decided they'll be identified as Captain Underpants McAwesome the 3rd these days!) and has gone through a couple of phases of saying she wants to grow up to be a boy - just because she tends to play with the boys in her class (cos the girls are a really tight clique who don't like her)... and I'm bloody terrified these normal and perfectly understandable things that she does that are just 4 year old kid (she wanted to be a robot the other week too, and spent a good fortnight only answering to Catboy in case anyone reports me for ruthlessly denying an obviously transgender child or anything - the boy thing was about as short-lived) are going to be latched on by very dubious organisations and she'll be pushed down a very dark and sinister road.

She just doesn't quite understand linguistically to use he/she (she's got other speech issues and I think there's a large element of "sh" being hard to say for her)... actually she'd probably go down a storm at an NUS conference really!

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 03/05/2018 12:25

Nope. Fucking Mad as hell though

MistressDeeCee · 05/05/2018 17:03

Yes, scared. But that fear spurs me on. The ferocity of a small group of privileged people and their flying monkeys is astounding. Not fear of them per se tho, it's more to do with how quickly the powers that be are bowing down to them. I'm shocked.

I don't believe they will win. When Self-ID aims, the outcome of them getting their way becomes apparent to wider society and impacts on the day to day life of women and girls, then whatever Self-IDs stand for or hope to gain will be quashed.

Depressingly I don't think women will be the catalyst for change. It will be heterosexual men.

Those men that think wtf..next to my wife/daughter/sister in changing rooms.. ? Hang on, my little girl has to share room/dorm with Self-IDs on school/guides etc residential trips?

That's without mentioning female hospital wards, refuges, medical examinations etc so very many areas that will be impacted. It'll be not my wife/daughter/sister/mum etc, eff that.

There's absolutely no way Posh Privilege will garner sympathy and empathy from wider society. They'll just be seen as cheeky fuckers trying it on.

& that will be that. I'm pretty sure they know it too hence wanting to bulldoze their way over us, quickly.

c75kp0r · 05/05/2018 18:02

I think there are lots of decent people out there who want to do the right thing who can easily be influenced in the age of social media so those that scream the loudest win. We all need to learn be more media literate, have better critical thinking and negotiation skills. It is too easy for any crackpot to get their ideas accepted as fact. We need to be prepared to pay for decent journalism. Without these we end up with a very bleak future.
I think the rise of narcissism needs urgently to be addressed though I don't know how.
Men's suicide levels show they aren't all having a fabby time either - and it is a shame the MRA movement hasn't managed to articulate those in a meaningful and convincing way. The message gets hijacked by the dickheads.
For change to happen, there needs to be a sense of urgency, so this "fear" could be helpful - but not if it stops us from listening and finding a workable new reality.

c75kp0r · 05/05/2018 18:19

one more scary thing - how assumptions are being built into technology. seen lots written about race in this context, but not so much about gender/sex.... except the observation that Alexa, Siri etc tend to be female. But if society's expectations and assumptions are built into these systems, then they are kind of set in stone (or code)

gendercritter · 05/05/2018 18:56

I'm certainly extremely worried. Partly because this issue is being fought covertly. My parents, for example, wouldn't have a clue what is happening. It's a being fought in certain areas of the internet - if you aren't on Twitter or Mumsnet it would be completely possible to have no clue what's happening and what's at stake. My parents read The Times but I guess skim past any articles on trans issues because they don't believe such things have any relevence to them. We could lose all legal protection as women as a distinct class and most people won't even know how it's happened.

The other thing that keeps me up at night is that while this movement has been driven by dangerous men (big surprise), they've been propped up by young women who have no idea how authoritarian their behaviour is. I find that absolutely chilling. TRA's wouldn't have had nearly as much impact without the thousands of university age women standing behind them, screaming that older women are bigots. Until you persuade them how dangerously naive and stupid they're being, there's going to be an uphill struggle to win this fight. We're talking about the next generation sticking two fingers up at everything older women have achieved on their behalf. I can't say how horrified I am by that and I'm in my thirties.

IrenetheQuaint · 05/05/2018 19:05

The TRAs are vile, but 99% of the women and girls in the UK (and elsewhere) are at greatest risk from men who were born male and are very happy with that identity and the licence it gives them to exploit and abuse women.

Terfulike · 05/05/2018 19:17

Some maniac 17 y old apparently attacked a young woman in the street with a cordless drill last night in ireland. Something to do with homophobia i think they said. That is terrifying.

Terfulike · 05/05/2018 19:19

Totally agree with you comments gendercritter

Terfulike · 05/05/2018 19:20

<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/homophobic-motive-explored-after-woman-attacked-with-drill-1.3485765%3fmode=amp#ampshare=www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/homophobic-motive-explored-after-woman-attacked-with-drill-1.3485765" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/homophobic-motive-explored-after-woman-attacked-with-drill-1.3485765%3fmode=amp#ampshare=www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/homophobic-motive-explored-after-woman-attacked-with-drill-1.3485765

OohMavis · 05/05/2018 19:31

Not scared. Fucking angry.

spontaneousgiventime · 05/05/2018 19:35

Not scared for myself but I'm bloody terrified for my daughters and granddaughters. It's this that drives me. I don't want them to be caught up in all of this. I am angry, angry it's been allowed to get to this, so I fight.

SpareRibFem · 05/05/2018 23:33

I'm scared and I'm angry.

And I typed up then deleted my thoughts on the problem because I'm conscious TRAs read all of this 😡

This is a War on Women, the TRAs are doing the dirty work for MRAs.

MrsUnderwood · 06/05/2018 07:32

Yes, I’m scared. For my daughter and my son.
I notice a couple of women have said they were relieved when they gave birth to a son knowing the horrors that being female could hold for a child. I was the opposite- when I found out I was pregnant with a boy, I was devastated because I didn’t know how I was going to raise a son in this awful misogynistic environment and not have him turn out part of the problem. I had antenatal depression and the thought that my son was being born into a society that devalues women to the point that our identity is a fucking free for all, that is soaked in degrading pornography that he will be exposed to, that he is going to absorb all these harmful messages... it gave me serious mental health problems throughout the pregnancy. I was sexually assaulted when I was a child, by other children, hadn’t thought about it in decades, and then suddenly started experiencing flashbacks about it during my pregnancy with my son. It was like I was suddenly aware of what even a very young male could be capable of doing and it horrified me that my child might grow up to be capable of that too.

With my daughter, I always knew she was going to have to fight, but it’s a fight I know well, it’s a fight I can help her survive because of my own experiences. My son, I don’t know how I can stop him being poisoned by sexism. He has good role models in me and his dad but we are only two people and I am scared that as soon as he starts going to school, he’s going to get exposed to insidious outside influences that I am so scared will change him from what he is now (a loving, affectionate, sweet and sunny little child) into someone who sees women and girls as less than human. It breaks my heart.

Bloodmagic · 06/05/2018 09:29

@DancelikeEmmaGoldman

While there have always been men who were unhappy with the expectations and social roles placed on them, just as there were women who were unhappy with theirs. The idea that they 'were always really the opposite sex on the inside' and should be treated as such seems to be relatively new.

I believe it's a backlash against women's progress.

In Australia we got a women's AFL team and IMMEDIATELY they changed the rules to let a man join it. Because we can't go around pretending that women are REALLY equal or worthy of their own spaces and recognition.

We got a womens weightlifting division in the 2002 commonwealth games and in 2018 (4 games later) a man on the team. No one was fighting to change the rules to include transmen or tranwomen in weightlifting before 2002.

We finally remove restrictions on which roles women are allowed to serve in the military, we immediately change the rules to allow men to serve 'as women'. No one gave a shit how I identified when I was told I couldn't be a combat engineer because it's considered a front line role, and no one asked any of the men who were doing it how they identified. Now that women are treated somewhat fairly (or at least not discriminated against as openly), suddenly identity matters and men are entitled to women's spaces and to be counted as women.

No one gave a shit about identity when women were not allowed to vote. No man in politics identified as a woman when there were almost no women in parliament. But as soon as there's quotas and women making real progress in representation they will try ANYTHING to give some of it back to men, even if those men are 19 year old with squeaky voices and skirts.

Even my very conservative Aunt is seeing this shit happening in her church groups. In the last 5 or 10 years people have started talking about women being silent in church and obeying their husbands. Right around the time groups like the Church of England finally started ordaining women as bishops and so on.

Looking at history, this always happens. When women first got the vote in the UK the mens voting age was set at 21 and the womens voting age was set at 30. Because if the ages were the same women would have outnumbered men, and of course that couldn't be allowed. We make progress towards equality, and suddenly a subgroup of men panic and try to snatch back as much power as they can in the name of 'equality'.

This is just another facet of the exact same knee jerk patriarchal panic we've always seen.

It's more subtle and underground this time, because it has to be. Because we as a society have stopped allowing it openly. This is good. This is progress.

Our grandmothers fought for their rights; to vote, to marry as they chose, to divorce as they chose, to work, to be paid fairly, to be represented in politics, to have their voices heard. It's just our turn to keep going.

If I may digress for a bit, I've recently FINALLY understood that the WHOOOLLE thing, the whole patriarchy, misogyny, trans thing comes from one unfortunate and inescapable truth:

Men don't matter.

On a biological evolutionary scale, men aren't really important.

If you have 100 men and 100 women you get 100 babies in the next generation. If you have 1 man and 100 women you get 100 babies. If you have 100 men and 1 woman you get 1 baby and the tribe goes extinct.

99% of all men on the planet could die right now, and while we would all be very sad, everything would keep on spinning. We've already had nearly that exact thing happen when men went to war and women stepped into their roles. Women already do the majority of work on the planet. And the next generation would most likely have the exact same number of people as if all the men had lived.

Then you have evolutionary sex selection, which can be summarized by the phrase 'dick is cheap' (meaning there's always competition for a female mate, but there ins't really competition for a male mate). You think male peacocks wanted to look like that? Think it helps them? No, the ladies just up and decided they were only going to fuck the shiniest of males, and so all the males became super shiny. Which means in the wild they get killed a lot more often but that doesn't matter because they're not really necessary to the species.
It happens in humans too. They say our population is getting taller because we're evolving or because we're better nourished. Actually ladies just generally want to fuck tall guys and every time they do the genes for both tallness and a preference for tallness get passed on.

Women decide which genes will and will not get in to the next generation. We decide what the future of the species will look like.

If we all decide 'You know what? Humanity has had a good run, you fucked it up, and we're not having any more people'. That's it, end of species.

There are any number of herbs and natural birth control methods that are actually pretty damn effective (we have been taught that they're unreliable and not to use them, hmm I wonder why) so any time a woman has the ability to access the outdoors and view her own body, passing laws about her reproductive right is rather an academic exercise. Men CANNOT prevent women from having abortions or preventing pregnancy, they can only try to punish them afterwards. This is why the very patriarchal religions are so shitty about BC and abortion. They have decreed that god is a male and he gave all the power and authority to men. The fact that women retain to right and ability to give or not give life as they choose shows the lie of that. It reminds everyone that if there was a creator god, as 'a thing which gave life to humans' it would by definition be a woman, and it's unlikely that SHE would have appointed some stuffy men to control her daughters lives. By demanding a semblance of control over birth and life they give the lie an air of truth.

So men and women can do 100% all the same things. Women can run countries as well as men, fix engines as well as men, run businesses and make scientific discoveries as well as men. The only difference between the sexes is this one division of reproductive ability, which makes women godlike - the ability to create life in our own image, to decide who makes it into the next generation and in doing so decide the future of the species.

This is why incel men are so butthurt. It's not just that women won't fuck them, it's that women, en masse, have judged them and ruled them unfit to continue even existing in the gene pool. That's existentially terrifying. And there is no right of appeal.

Poor short guys. There's nothing wrong or bad about being shorter than average. Hell it would be a lot better for the environment if we were all a lot smaller. But women arbitrarily decided that we want to fuck tall men and so many short guys, even if they're sweet and kind and fit and healthy and everything else in the word, are cut out of the gene pool on the collective whim of women who arbitrarily decided that short isn't sexy. That sucks, but that's just how it is.

And what did men get in exchange for that? A slight edge in brute force. Which they are expected to use in sacrificing themselves for the group because their lives don't actually matter (again, talking on an evolutionary level and on a massive time scale, obviously I would be personally crushed if anything happened to any of the men in my life or men as a whole).

Good men have come to terms with this. They understand that the ability to decide birth is for women alone, however fair or unfair that may be. They made peace with their place as the teachers, nurturers and guides for the next generation rather than the architects of it. The ones who can't cope with that become misogynists.

Everything in patriarchy is about men trying futilely to get control of women's reproduction. Putting her an a burka so other men wont try to fuck her and she can only have YOUR children. Banning her from getting an education and a job, so she has to be dependent on you. Arranged marriage. Virginity checks. FGM. Abortion and contraception laws. All of this is just about male jealousy of female reproduction. Other stuff (like limiting voting rights or being shitty to women in politics) is meant to preserve those systems, because if women did suddenly get the majority of political power the first thing we'd do is get rid of all those laws giving men authority over us.

Then we get to trans issues. Some of the transwomen that i know in life and many whose personal stories I've read online are specifically and openly envious of pregnancy, menstruation, and birth. It's the one thing they can never do.

Then you have other men who are using those men who genuinely aspire to femininity to erase women and retake some of the ground women have won. A futile attempt to retain control over what they will never have. This includes the 'non-dysphoric trans' such as Danielle Muscato and politicians and other men who say 'i see transwomen as women in everyway, except of course as a potential sexual partner cause I'm not gay'.

It's allllll the same shit. It's all based in existential terror over the bilogical role of males and a desire to co-opt the female role, either through impersonation (post op trans), or through oppression and colonization.

This is hopeful though, because it means that ultimately we will win. Ultimately women have all the same capabilities as men plus one, and we do hold the power. The patriarchy is a lie. An illusion. And it is slowly unraveling. We will see panic and push back of course. But with every generation we as women craft a new one that is slightly taller and slight more attractive, yes, but also slightly kinder, smarter, more generous and more gentle. We can't actually lose this fight, in the long run.

That was quite a lengthy digression actually. Tag me if you have any thoughts on it. Its my grand unified theory of misogyny (but of course I'm sure other women thought of this before me).

Flomper · 06/05/2018 09:36

Your theory makes a lot of sense to me. Dick is indeed cheap, as any dating site will show you.

ChattyLion · 06/05/2018 09:54

Yes I am scared. Sad

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 06/05/2018 10:09

[offtopic: grimsqueaker your dd wanting to be a robot made me think of this

amp.theguardian.com/technology/2018/may/06/no-death-and-an-enhanced-life-is-the-future-transhuman ]

catandtheteapot · 06/05/2018 10:23

I am finding the handling of the language surrounding these issues scary. I’m autistic and often struggle to express myself adequately. I lack the ability to use language in a sophisticated manner so often come across as blunt. I don’t know how to use language in order to express myself without being deleted. The TRAs are obviously hard at work reporting people for anything and everything. What we are permitted to post seems to be becoming narrower and narrower. My ability to express myself is already very contracted so soon I’ll be left with no words left to post at all. So thanks for that mnhq Hmm

QuestioningStuffBanana · 06/05/2018 10:33

I was scared and still am but I am also quietly optimistic that things are starting turn.

Also, one big positive for me is that I have started to connect with other women. And I think a lot of women are doing this who weren't before. It may be online mostly, mumsnet, Facebook, twitter, but meetings are also taking place face to face. I think the situation now has brought a lot of women together and we are doing things and that is making a difference. I know there are a lot of incredible women who have been doing stuff for years but now there are more to help.

bd67th · 06/05/2018 10:43

@gendercritter; thousands of university age women standing behind them, screaming that older women are bigots

These women don't have kids (I guarantee you that the tiny number of student mums are way too busy for activism) and have either never been pregnant or have ended all pregnancies swiftly via a "hasty abortion" (to quote Juno). They've never had a miscarriage that wasn't both very early and a welcome relief. They've never had to wash leaked breast milk out of their top at a public sink. They tend to use hormonal contraceptives, often long-acting, which suppress heavy periods and other gynecological health problems, and haven't yet hit the magic age of 30 where you get told "random health problem AND over 30 = no more oestrogen-based contraceptives for you", which substantially limits options for controlling menstruation. They haven't yet started trying for a family, which means stopping hormonal contraceptives and putting up with a waterfall of blood and crippling pain every month. Tuition fees and loans mean that fewer university students are from poor families, so they don't understand period poverty and using bargain crappy towels or paper tissue and then having it leak and having to wash blood out of clothing whilst stood at the sink in an open-plan toilet. They were well-off enough that they weren't taken to run-down sports centres where the changing rooms and showers were open-plan. They aren't old enough to remember open changing rooms in shops being the norm. They aren't old enough to remember disabled toilets being rare and always radar-keyed, so if you wanted to misuse the disabled loo to get more privacy, you couldn't because you didn't have a key or there just wasn't a disabled loo.

In short, these female uni students have no idea of the impact that widepread admission of males into female spaces will have, because they aren't old enough or poor enough to have our life experiences. I'm child-free (yes, this is Mumsnet, I see the irony) and Cherry Austin's miscarriage article helped me see why even public toilet segregation matters, because I don't have that experience myself. TRAs calling discussion of women's bodies "transphobic" and putting "trigger warning: pregnancy" on tweets etc creates a climate in which their female allies are silenced about their own bodies and discouraged from reading articles like Cherry's to learn about other women's experiences.

These students also don't have enough workplace experience to recognise sexism at work. They haven't had the time to reflect critically on life experiences and ask questions like "that time when I was 12 that my aunt told me to lie face-down on the lilo at the pool instead of face-up because there was a man perving at my tits, why did she tell me off and not him?" and then wonder "and what if he'd been able to follow me into the open changing room and claim he was a trans woman when challenged?". Because uni-age women aren't experienced enough to recognise their own oppression, they swallow the "trans women are the most oppressed" narrative hook line and sinker.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is closed and is no longer accepting replies. Click here to start a new thread.