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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Nottinghamshire Police 'trial' on treating misogny as a hate crime

17 replies

RedToothBrush · 02/05/2018 19:56

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/police-force-treating-misogyny-as-hate-crime-receives-reports-from-girls-as-young-as-12_uk_5ae988bfe4b022f71a036f30

Police Force Treating Misogyny As Hate Crime Receives Reports From Girls As Young As 12
MPs are leading an inquiry into street harassment.

OP posts:
QuarksandLeptons · 02/05/2018 20:13

The Young Women’s Trust and Fawcett Society point out women are much more likely to feel generally unsafe while out in public, and are less likely to run for high-profile, public facing roles due to the fear of receiving abuse.

Both organisations want misogyny to be classed as a hate crime by police forces worldwide - a measure the government is currently considering

This needs to happen. Women are 52% of the population and hate crime against us needs to be robustly recognised and dealt with with new laws.

I would love to know what practical steps need to be taken In order to get misogyny classified as a hate crime.

lightthedarkness · 02/05/2018 20:31

I really don't like the idea of 'hate crime' as it's so subjective and I think has contributed significantly to the idea of others / strangers / the population at large as 'hateful' .
BUT, given the torrent of violence against women and girls, the increasing rates of sexual harassment in schools and the amazing ability that some have found to eradicate women's rights with apparently no difficulty at all, then I may have to change my mind.

I would be interested in how they define it?

InLoveWithDavidTennant · 02/05/2018 20:34

This needs to happen. Women are 52% of the population and hate crime against us needs to be robustly recognised and dealt with with new laws

Couldnt agree more with this if i tried!

RedToothBrush · 02/05/2018 20:37

I am of a similar mindset. I think it too subjective as a term.

I also think its too easy to end up with hate crime as a concept that will be abused.

Equally I also think, how on earth do you stop this shit?

Im not convinced this is the solution tbh.

Interesting to see this trialled and there being shock at the results. (Why???! Why does this surprise ANYONE?)

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elderflowerandrose · 02/05/2018 20:40

I think it is a real breakthrough and sends a very important message to everyone that this harsssment and inequality is not acceptable

lightthedarkness · 02/05/2018 20:46

I am slowly coming round to the point - but having seen how it's been used against Linda Bellos et al, I do have concerns. It's such a broad concept.

QuarksandLeptons · 02/05/2018 21:03

Yes, agree the key to it would have to be in a proper definition. It would need in my opinion to be connected to sex based protections.

CluelessAboutSpain · 02/05/2018 21:22

While the awful misogyny and violence women and girls a facing everyday makes me absolutely livid, I agree with those who feel uncomfortable with the idea of 'hate crime' - it's much to subjective and open to abuse.

Just as an aside, I also don't quite understand how the police can be 'trialling' treating something as hate crime. Doesn't this go against the principle of 'Nullum crimen, nulla poena sine lege'? At least where I'm from this sort of approach would most likely be unconstitutional.

MIdgebabe · 02/05/2018 21:35

A hate crime is defined ( in BBC) as a Crime that the victim or another person thinks is motivated by hostility or predujice to any aspect of a persons identity. Which particular characteristics you measure is apparently down to the individual police force.

The police will investigate any incident even if not formally a crime if there is potentially a hate aspect. The purpose is to make call out hate driven behaviours, to support victims.

Quite astounding really that no other police force has taken the opportunity to add misogeny to its list. Suggests that something could be done about e.g. Upskirting if they really wanted to.

Thanksforthatamazingpost · 02/05/2018 21:36

ooh, interesting.

clueless, are you talking Spanish??

RedToothBrush · 02/05/2018 21:48

Clueless I think part of the point Nottinghamshire police are making here is that the law already DOES exist in principle. The point is that police forces are not gathering the evidence with a mind to do anything about it, and the CPS are not using the existing law.

The law not being used is not uncommon.

The law is also often interpreted in different ways once passed to apply to practical situations which were not envisaged when that law was made. Terrorism laws have a particular track record in this department for bring used for all manner of situations.

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DJLippy · 02/05/2018 21:50

I want to make the term TERF hate speech. I started a thread here
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3238757-Lobby-Parliament-to-make-TERF-Hate-Speech

Would it be possible for people in Nottingham to report TERF to the police, especially if it's linked with threats or gendered insults.

Chocolatecake84 · 02/05/2018 21:52

I just posted this in another thread but it's relevant here too. Sorry for the double post.

Here's the Nottinghamshire Police section on hate crime and it's revealing. www.nottinghamshire.police.uk/hatecrime.

Notice the definition of hate crime - A hate crime is any incident where someone is targeted because of their identity. Hate crime can take any shape and isn't always illegal behaviour, but it is always motivated by prejudice, often in the following areas:

Race
Religion
Sexual orientation
Disability
Transgender
Misogyny
Alternative sub-culture e.g. goth

For all the areas people are targeted on the basis of these i.e. race, religion. Misogyny is the only one that doesn't make it clear why women are targeted: because of our sex. They make it sound like it could happen to anyone.

rememberthetime · 02/05/2018 22:10

it is just a matter of time before there are calls to add misandry to that list.

in fact, that seems sensible and fair. I just don't think that it happens as often as some men tend to think.

I would like to see the numbers of reported misogyny Vs misandry hate crimes. that might show some interesting and verifiable statistics.

OvaHere · 02/05/2018 22:15

I have similar misgivings to others about misuse of hate crime laws but in this climate I think misogyny has to be added.

I think if we were to lobby hard on this, especially given all the recent press about incels, it would be hard for the authorities to ignore.

CluelessAboutSpain · 02/05/2018 22:44

Thanksforthatamazingpost, no, I was talking about Germany.

RTB, if Nottinghamshire Police are just using putting more effort into actually using laws that already exist, that would obviously be fine. However the definition from their website posted by Chocolate says that a hate crime doesn't have to be illegal behaviour and that is something I find deeply worrying. It sounds like someone reporting an 'offensive' but not illegal statement from i.e. Twitter may be enough to trigger an investigation (in the course of which other actually illegal behaviour may or may not be found to have occurred). Investigating someone just for holding distasteful or unpopular yet perfectly legal opinions is highly problematic. Anyone who values freedom of speech and the rule of law should be appalled by this.

MIdgebabe · 03/05/2018 12:12

it is all highly dubious, but does reflect a grey area. Bullying someone isn't exactly illegal. Intimidating someone isn't exactly illegal. This means that women can be intimidated by a gang of workmen leering and shouting.

Those men are exercising their right to free speech by yelling" oh look at her". As a result of exercising their right to free speech, they are intimidating someone else, and that may prevent her from exercise her right to jog along the street when she lives. It's something many people are not happy about.

It's a clash of rights. my right to be respected and their right to free speech. A lot of synergies with some other topical debates. As with all rights you should think about the responsibilities that coexist with those rights.

In Nottingham, the police speak ( i.e. Investigate) to the victim and to such groups of workmen . In that specific case, they explained to the workmen that their behaviouris inappariate and the men changed their behaviour. They may also offer advice( I think via third parties) to the victim.

What this is trying to do is nudge behaviours towards those that are more acceptable.

Of course, what we have is the police determining who should perhaps be making the most changes to their behaviours.

But what we have without this is that it is up to the woman (or insert your preferred sub group here) to change her behaviours. Always. This is giving a third party the ability to intervene in such instances. Which is imho clearly needed.

SO on balance I think it should be a hate crime, and I think that there needs to be strong oversight, discussion etc, of the use of hate crime interventions and of how clashing rights are best managed.

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