Interesting Peter Tatchell article on freedom of speech and equality law

[Wanderabout]

Using the law to force Ashers and others to aid the dissemination of ideas that conflict with their conscience sets a dangerous, authoritarian precedent.

The equality laws invoked in this case are intended to protect people – not ideas – against discrimination.

www.thesun.co.uk/news/6182820/ashers-christian-bakery-gay-cake/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Should cake makers not be allowed to refuse to make a pro-UKIP cake?

Being a member of a political party isn't a protected characteristic so they could refuse.

Lee has conflated the right of Ashers not to support a political campaign with which it disagrees with discrimination against an individual with a protected characteristic. I agree with Peter Tatchell they should have the right to do so.

If same sex marriage were legal in NI and if Ashers then refused an order for a cake for "Bill and Ted's wedding" (rather than a cake with a political slogan) I might have a different opinion . As it stands I can't see why they should be punished for adopting the same view as civil law in NI does.

If Orange Men had gone into a bakery in a well-known Catholic part of Belfast and asked for a cake with a slogan celebrating one of their marches (which are legal in NI), should the bakers have been obliged to provide them with a service?

If Orange Men had gone into a bakery in a well-known Catholic part of Belfast and asked for a cake with a slogan celebrating one of their marches (which are legal in NI), should the bakers have been obliged to provide them with a service?

There religion is a protected characteristic for both. Sometimes the courts have to decide which one characteristic will trump which (e.g. a Muslim taxi driver who refused a passenger with a guide dog because of his religion was held to have discriminated)

In your example I would imagine the right to refuse to ice the cake would win as the other side is clearly acting in provocative manner.

This is still really making me think.

I would decorate the pro-gay marriage cake every time, with delight.

But are there messages I wouldn't want to be forced by law to write on a cake?

What about If I was asked to ice the word 'TERF' should I have to do that?

Or what about something illegal I disagreed with - e.g. A pro-paedophilia cake?

There religion is a protected characteristic for both.

But Orange marches are a political act, not a religious obligation.

(e.g. a Muslim taxi driver who refused a passenger with a guide dog because of his religion was held to have discriminated)

But here there's an obvious safety issue at play. Also, taxi drivers are supposed to accept any passenger unless perhaps they are drunk or abusive. A bakery, like most private businesses, is not obliged to accept any job.

In your example I would imagine the right to refuse to ice the cake would win as the other side is clearly acting in provocative manner.

But couldn't you say the same here? From what I know, this bakery was well known to be run by conservative Christians. Belfast is a pretty big town. The customers could easily have chosen one of any number of other bakeries. Of all the bakeries in all of Belfast, they happened to choose this one?

Yes, unless they had a “No Political or Religious slogan” T&C.

Is that true? A private business is obliged to accept any job at any time? I thought businesses could pick and choose which commisions they wanted to take. It's their choice to lose out on the business, presumably at the gain of one of their many competitors.

A test case.

In other words, a deliberate provocation.

Or what about something illegal I disagreed with - e.g. A pro-paedophilia cake?

Paedophilia is neither legal nor a protected characteristic so of course you could refuse.

Homosexuality is legal in NI ,same sex marriage isn't. Whilst your example initially looked a bit silly to my mind it highlights the unfairness of trying to force Ashers to support a campaign for same sex marriage.

A bakery, like most private businesses, is not obliged to accept any job

That is true but the reason must not be simply because of protrcted characteristic. For example I declined to act for a number of clients whom I had only been contacted by e-mail. Their names clearly indicated their ethnic origin was different from mine. My reason for declining was there was big red flashing lights re money laundering , they ticked so many "do not touch with a barge pole" bixes. When I reported it to my MLRO he agreed we should not act. When I told them they sent an email which was obviously a threat that they were going to report me for being racist. I ignored it and we never heard from them.

But they didn't refuse the business because the customers were gay. It's not like two men walked in holding hands and were told to leave. That would be a totally different scenario. They simply declined a job because they were asked to promote a political campaign (gay marriage) that they do not believe in. Like I say, I'm struggling to see how that's so very different from a Catholic baker potenitally turning down a request to decorate a cake with slogans promoting the Orange Order.

They simply declined a job because they were asked to promote a political campaign (gay marriage) that they do not believe in.!

This is the crux of it for me. If Bernadette Smith rocked up and wanted a cake or banner or whatever with one of her grotesque images on it I would tell her to shove it. The fact that she or her ilk could potentially hide behind an argument that they are a lobbyist or campaign group or whatever worries me. Businesses and individuals should be able to decide what they produce marketing or campaign material for.

I'm with Ashers on this and have been from the outset- quite difficult here when people just have this knee jerk reaction and don't understand what this could actually mean. I have dealt with the son (who's the "face" of this case) and wasn't terribly impressed. His mother however, who started the company and called Mr Lees to refuse the order and arrange a refund, is a genuinely lovely woman who tries to treat her customers and staff in a Christian way. But very niave.

Same here.

It's very rare that I'll find myself on the same side as religious types, but just as I reserve my right to refuse to promote political slogans which go against my beliefs, I defend their right to do the same.

Regardless of the details, this could end with the law being used to compel people to outwardly support something that is currently illegal. That is insane.

All Ashers had to do was refuse. “Unfortunately we are unable to make your cake”

They should have just said no and not given a reason

Saying no for no reason /too busy/ not skilled enough would not prevent anyone who had a legitimate ground for complaining they had been discriminated if there are grounds for believing the real reason was the protected characteristic.

In the real life example I gave I did not give a reason for declining to act - had the persons involved complained and it was determined my refusal was because of their ethnic origin I would have been discriminating against them.

In the real life example I gave I did not give a reason for declining to act - had the persons involved complained and it was determined my refusal was because of their ethnic origin I would have been discriminating against them.

But again, Ashers didn't turn down the business because the customers were gay. They turned it down because they were being asked to promote something in conflict with their deeply held beliefs. Had the cake been requested by a straight couple - as it could easily have been - their reaction would presumably been the same.

So it's a very different scenario.

The difficulty for Ashers in their stance of being asked to promote something contrary to their beliefs is that they had been quite willing to make Halloween products; which are also contrary to their beliefs.

NI has also got slightly different protected characteristics - political opinion is explicitly a protected characteristic www.ecu.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/external/anti-discrimination-law-in-ni.pdf

Iced Purple I am agreeing with you. I think Ashers had a legitimate reason for turning this business down.

I would decorate the pro-gay marriage cake every time, with delight.

But are there messages I wouldn't want to be forced by law to write on a cake?

What about If I was asked to ice the word 'TERF' should I have to do that?

Hmm yeah thats a good point. Its entirely possible that someone would ask for a cake saying 'I stomp TERFS' or something. As lass said, the paedophile example doesn't work, as its illegal. However it seems it is legal to be misogynistic and abusive towards women, or to threaten it. So the TERF example works pretty well.

Having said that, I think I would probably just suck it up and make the cake, if I had a business like that.

I don't really get why these bakers did not just say they couldn't do it and not give a reason. But I also don't really get why it was dragged through the courts either instead of just using another bakers. I also didn't realise same sex marriage was illegal where the incident happened, and would have thought that would maybe influence the courts somewhat.

The difficulty for Ashers in their stance of being asked to promote something contrary to their beliefs is that they had been quite willing to make Halloween products; which are also contrary to their beliefs.

But shouldn't you be able to draw the line on where you are not happy to promote other beliefs? For example I would happily decorate a fairies are real cake even though I don't believe it. Should I then have to be compelled by law to decorate a Sharia Law is a good idea cake?

The difficulty for Ashers in their stance of being asked to promote something contrary to their beliefs is that they had been quite willing to make Halloween products; which are also contrary to their beliefs.

But it's not the same thing. Making a product celebrating an occasion you don't celebrate is not the same thing as making a product endorsing a political campaign you are actively opposed to.

NI has also got slightly different protected characteristics - political opinion is explicitly a protected characteristic

But the law protects people, not ideas. This is obviously especially important in NI because of its history - you wouldn't want a DUP voter refusing to employ a Sinn Fein supporter for example. That would not mean, however, that a DUP supporter should be obliged to make products endorsing Sinn Fein political aims.

As lass said, the paedophile example doesn't work, as its illegal.

Sorry, I didn't realise until the end of the post that same sex marriage was also illegal in Northern Ireland. I amended the second bit of the post but not the first. I thought NI had the same laws as the rest of the UK, for some reason