Is it Transphobic to know what someone's sex is?

[AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth]

I think we need to definitely and unequivocally know the answer to this

I have, whilst sitting in a GP waiting room, been talked about loudly, by a full grown man in front of his wife and two young children. His exact words were "is it a boy or a woman?... oh it's a woman." I have severe social anxiety so didn't say anything back to him, but his comment has stuck with me and was ridiculously rude. For the record, I am not trans, but have had similar comments as a teen (and occasionally by young children as an adult, but I understand those ones) because I have short hair, look quite androgynous and wear fairly unisex-looking women's clothes (hoodies, jeans etc).

I think, personally, that if anyone other than a young child asks someone's sex then it's rude. Yes I think it's also transphobic. If it is within the context of a sporting competition or medical examination that you specifically want done by a female, for example, then I think it's different, but there are ways and means of asking/finding out.

fucking hell LostPlatypus, aren't some people revolting?

It isn't transphobic. Neither is it 'none of your business'. While men rape and assault women in their thousands, every day, then it is our business to know if someone belongs to the sex category of men.

All this 'it's nobody's business what's in someone's pants'. Well, until men stop using what's in their pants to hurt women, it very much is our fucking business.

Truscum I love you! I love Miranda too. And Rose of Dawn. It's funny finding out I'm a transphobic TERF at the same time as coming across so many inspirational trans women.

Thanks ReluctantCamper Yeah he was particularly foul. It's not the first time I've had comments and probably won't be the last, but I'm still not quite sure why some people think they have the right to be so awful.

I’m quite tall and broad of shoulder. Before I got middle aged and curvier/large of nork, I used to be mistaken for a man, particularly when I kept my hair short. There was a period in my twenties when I had short hair and lived in a baggy man’s jacket in the winter when I was regularly ‘read’ as male and addressed as such. Did not bother me in the slightest and I never took offence.

In answer to the question in the OP, its definitely relevant to safe medical treatment. Also, as a PP, relevant to natal women’s risk assessment of a situation.

I would say that most of us here would agree that most of the time your sex should be irrelevant. There are a small number of very specific cases where it's OK to take sex into consideration.

So it's not transphobic to ask, but it is irrelevant and quite rude if you're not in one of those specific situations.

Very much agree with you Reluctant.

Also agree with Reluctant. Criticising people's looks in order to speculate about whether they are trans is bad form and cruel.

What is transphobic is when you assume someone is trans just because they say or do something that you don’t think corresponds with what you believe a man/woman would say or do

Do you mean like saying that you love being catcalled and treated like a piece of meat because it makes you feel like such a sexy woman?

Or that good sex for a woman consists of having your throat grabbed, and being tied up and 'rammed like a champ'?

Or telling women to 'enjoy your erasure'?

Or telling feminists that if they are centering female anatomy and female reproductive rights they are exclusionary and not 'proper feminists'?

That sort of thing?

Yeah, the first one in particular. See the thread about a female writer who describes herself as a slut. Also happens to have quite masculine facial features and someone was absolutely convinced she was trans. She is not, of course. The implication being that only someone born male would say those things which is of course untrue.

As for the rest of it I assume it’s stuff said by TRAs.

The implication being that only someone born male would say those things which is of course untrue.

Yes there are women who say these things. The problem is when trans identified males like Paris Lees (who I think that is taken from) promote the idea that being objectified and receiving sexual harassment is an integral and necessary part of womanhood and women who don't like it should STFU. The problem is when male sexual fetishes are assumed to be what it means to be a woman.

Exactly Eresh

This article is very obviously straight from the pornified mind of a male, yet Paris claims that they speak for women, that this is the sort of stuff is what 'truly sexy' women like, and if you don't like being jizzed over by a random guy in a nightclub then you are just a boring prude.

It's just so male!

www.vice.com/en_uk/article/nnq44q/paris-lees-the-21-sexiest-things-about-sex-696

I agree with others - in almost every day to day circumstances, it's completely irrelevant whether someone if female or male, so it's also completely irrelevant whether someone is trans.

I was pondering Park Run this morning, though, and trying to work out how to square the circle of women having a fair chance in sport (even non-competitive, run for fun sport) and transwomen being able to go about their life without announcing to the world that they are trans. Even for a transwoman who doesn't pass very well, it doesn't seem particularly dignified for them to compete as a man, but of course competing as a woman gives such a sigificant advantage that we cannot ignore it. And most local Park Runs won't have sufficient numbers as to have separate transwoman categories, and of course having these would also be a large signal to the world that someone is trans.

I don't know what the answer is

@EllenRipley, yes it is very male writing but does some of it come from contributors at PL's request? I read something at the beginning that implied that I think but can't be wasting any more time going back to look for it. My point really is that, although most of it is male, there are bits about being 'wet' and throbbing, which got me wondering exactly how a neovagina actually works. I understand from what I've seen of the Jazz Jennings things that they either take some tissue from the peritoneum or the colon. Presumably these stretch, widthways if not lengthways at least. Or lengthwise too? But they wouldn't secrete any fluids surely, any fluids would have to be derived from elsewhere. Throbbing, hmm. There wouldn't be any clitoral nerves which radiate down to the vaginal introitus, not much is known about them still and I can't imagine they're at a stage where they could transplant them anyway. Anybody know much about this?

Parkrun isn't a race.

No one is competing in it, they are participating in an inclusive event (deliberate part of the Parkrun ethos). Other events are available for those who want competitions under rules, and other clubs if they want a different kind of community.

aunt

That's exactly why olennas said

even non-competitive, run for fun sport

OlennasWimple Re; Parkrun, a transwoman has three options. Register and run as a man or woman or register but don't take with them a printed copy of their barcode. With the last option, they get to run but not register a time, so there would be no question of their time affecting any of the female runners. They could keep their own record of their times, if they so wished.

in legal terms and reporting terms - I don't know the answer to your question but I would like to know, yes. It is quite confusing when you hear of a particular crimes committed by a person of a particular sex and then you find out that what was reported was their gender.

for hospital wards etc there could be a Bio Sex Certificate. I don't care what gender criteria anyone uses, it's of no relevance on a hospital ward. I do think it's important that sex segregated facilities stay that way - they were set up this way for a reason.

misscocker - I guess that would be the least intrusive option.

But - and I'm deliberately playing devil's advocate a bit, because I don't know what the solution should be - does this mean that the transwoman runner has no option other than to not participate fully in Parkrun (presumably coming up with various reasons why they never have their barcode with them to scan); to out themselves as trans and run as part of the M field; or run as F in the knowledge that they are enjoying an advantage over the rest of the field?

Not much of a choice, really, is it? It reminds me of the fudge that there was in place for a while in British universities where women could study but not graduate or practice medicine

Is it just one of those things that transwomen need to accept as part of their decision to transition?

for hospital wards etc there could be a Bio Sex Certificate

For (almost?) all medical treatment bio sex is important, surely? Even if it's not something directly related to transition, it's important for the HCPs diagnosing and treating an ailment to know whether the patient is male or female

Well, with the third option, a transwoman would get the fun of participating and no one would get p*ssed off. A win win situation and much fairer. Or alternatively, why not be out and proud and have a trans categorisation? Or have two categories, XX and XY. Or simply have no categories and not record anyone's time.

Given that the vast majority of transwomen don’t pass (and spend a great deal of time and money and expensive surgery and treatments on attempting to pass) I don’t think you can be transphobic for the mere act of recognizing that their biological sex. It’s mostly pretty obvious. What would be transphobic is pulling them up on it.

I guess that’s the difficulty really. We’ve all been neatly socialized into not hurting people’s feelings and only those that haven’t yet been tutored in the art of lying through your teeth to be nice (little kids) are actually candid about sex recognition.

So no. Recognizing biological sex isn’t transphobic. It’s interesting to debate where the line is though. I know it’s a cliche, but the truth hurts.

Oleanna, I agree with you.

I've given the example before - a doctor might be around to help - but if you were admitted to hospital with say, a stab wound in the lower abdomen (why yes I am a Londoner!) if your medical records state gender and not sex, that might cause immediate conflict in how they seek to treat you?

I would always want my biological sex to be known in the event of a medical emergency.

was the Scottish consultation asking about birth certificates? That seems risky to me - I mean a risk to the trans individual, though of course they can make a choice.

I think that when it comes to crime stats it is imporatnt to record sex.