Trans women are women answers to Terfmore's questions

[SupermatchGame]

Terfmore. I don't want to override the ASD discussion that's developed...
but SupermacthGame: you gave your explanation why "trans women are women". I was hoping for a coherent argument.
Could you respond to my request that you clarify your position; I found it difficult to understand tbh I found it incoherent.
You could start a new thread if you like.

Ok, as you suggest:

upthread you say -
"Trans women are women because 'woman' (or female) is not only a legal designation but having a gender identity of 'woman' is a legitimate female gender identity with some basis in biology and physiology. No-one said this is an exact science. It's pragmatic." -
Could you break this down -

1. what do you mean "woman" is a legal designation? what law are you referring to? do you mean "adult human female"?

I mean the category ‘female’ not only has a biological definition, but it is also a legal category that can be conferred to a person following GRC. I’m using ‘woman’ and ‘female’ interchangeably here. Eg as specified in the Royal College of Psychiatrist’s Guidance on gender dysphoria:
"Once a Gender Regulation [sic] Certificate has been issued, the applicant must, in accordance with the provisions of that certificate, be identified as a man or a woman and not a ‘trans man’ or ‘trans woman’. "

Quoting the Gender Recognition Act 2004:
"Where a full gender recognition certificate is issued to a person, the person’s gender becomes for all purposes the acquired gender (so that, if the acquired gender is the male gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a man and, if it is the female gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a woman)." (my bold)

2. what does "gender identity of woman is a legitimate female gender identity" mean.

It means that regardless of natal sex, if a person identifies as a woman, and they have been diagnosed or confirmed as having a ‘female gender identity’ then to all intents and purposes they are classed as having a female gender identity that legitimises medical and legal transition. I’m not sure taken in isolation this clause makes much sense because it is part of a larger sentence.

3. in what way is an identity legitimate (and presumably there will be non or illegitimate identity?)

Legitimate as in confirmed by psychiatrists and/ or psychologists. As in a (cross sex) gender identity that is not caused by some co-morbidity or underlying pathology. (Not caused by anything other than GID/ or 'transgenderism'). An identity that can then be further legitimised by changing legal status.

4. do you mean identity "has some basis in biology and physiology"? what do you mean by identity? (it means different things to different people).

I mean gender identity (the sex with which an individual identifies with or feels they are) has genetic, biological, environmental and societal causes. (Although you could say that about most aspects of identity - using the biopsychosocial model). What evidence there is points to this. I’ve highlighted a lot of it on the other thread. I was abbreviating my language and focusing on the non environmental causes - by biology I meant genes and biochemistry including hormonal influences. By physiology I meant the physiology of the brain as in brain structure. Is There Something Unique about the Transgender Brain? www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/

5. What is "pragmatic"? I think you are referring to "trans women are women" not being exact but we just have to live with it. but I may have that wrong?

Not 100% perfect solution. No-one has yet found a way to ‘cure’ transsexualism. Treatment alleviates dysphoria. In many cases it supports the person to lead a happier life in which they can function better psychologically, emotionally, socially and occupationally. Sometimes also in terms of sexual relationships. It’s not a perfect transition - trans women do not acquire wombs, trans men do not have real testicles (not that they all want to?) Not all trans people can resemble their new sex as much as they would ideally like. But it can be good enough. It can support improved health outcomes for some individuals. It is also a solution that most of society (and it’s main organisations) seems to accept. Hence pragmatic, not perfect, solution.

They want it so badly that they're constantly trying to shut down any discussion about why it might not be a good thing. And yet it apparently changes nothing.

Strange really!

I'd also like an answer to this: fi self-ID changes nothing why do the trans lobby want it?

Just answered OldCrone :) - I believe it's simply because it makes the process more tolerable and less upsetting for transpeople.

That's what they want, I think. Most of them, at any rate.

which to me looks like a societal shift towards awareness and acceptance of transpeople.

To me it looks like a sustained campaign of aggressive political lobbying, bullying and silencing of women who dare to express the most mildest gender critical view coupled with a jaw dropping lack of empathy and consideration for women and girls.

Perspective, eh?

Many believe the current GRC process is protracted, demeaning and unnecessarily arduous.

OK, so the requirement to live in your new identity for two years is fairly protracted, but it you're going to do it for the rest of your life, where's the harm in trying it out before you commit?

Demeaning? How?

Unnecessararily arduous? In what way?

I also think it's why some people get so up in arms about those resisting it and see it as transphobic:

If you're trans and want self-ID purely to make your difficult life that little bit easier, but there's this group of people intent on you not having that - and you can't see what tangible effect self-ID could have on anyone at all except you and other transpeople... I mean what are you going to think about that??

Demeaning? How?

Unnecessararily arduous? In what way?

I don't know, I'm not trans.

But that's the feedback the government committee got back from trans organisations when they consulted them about improving the lives of transpeople.

So I have to assume at least some transpeople find it so.

I also think it's why some people get so up in arms about those resisting it and see it as transphobic:

Because they like to control others and think that their concerns are unimportant and can be dismissed without comment and that their own feelings and demands should have primacy?

But that's the feedback the government committee got back from trans organisations when they consulted them about improving the lives of transpeople.
Can you link to that?

Can you link to that?

Not right now I'm afraid, I'm multitasking! But it'll be easy to find online if you Google Maria Miller's consultation on trans. They consulted nearly 250 groups and individuals if I remember rightly - mostly trans organisations of course but some notable feminists and feminist groups in there too :)

Sorry I couldn't go a search and link for you!

If you struggle finding it I'll pop back later to look.

Isn’t it in Maria Miller’s report? I think they spoke to a number of trans groups. Anyway, there may not be consensus in that not ALL trans people will want self-ID but you never will get everyone agreeing to everything.

I don’t think people wanting de-medicalisation is necessary unreasonable. they don’t like the insinuation that it’s an illness. To them it does not feel like an illness. To non-trans people, many can’t understand how someone can feel like they are in the wrong body without being ill. I am not sure it has to be a medicalised process or whether it really adds anything.

They consulted nearly 250 groups and individuals if I remember rightly - mostly trans organisations of course but some notable feminists and feminist groups in there too :)

Whose written submissions they completely ignored. And they didn't invite them to come in person. Only trans groups, despite other people having a stake.

Only trans groups, despite other people having a stake.

But do other people have a stake? That's the thing, it doesn't look to me like self-id makes any odds to anyone else at all really!

Right, really must go now!

@peakpants "I would prefer unisex lockable toilet cubicles in clearly visible places, making the possibility of attacks on anyone less likely. I don't like toilets that are down a dark corridor or alley with nobody to hear if someone were to cause you harm for example."

Well I do tend to agree with that. However, I'd rather still have the door makes F and M and logistically not all toilets need those expensive sanitary bins.

However, it is my understanding contrary to what Rat says that female toilets are for females and women do now still feel able to tell me they are in the wrong one of that find a male in their toilets.

Even the idea of self id has stripped us of this since we fear we will be seen as in the wrong. How can this not be about taking away women's rights to privacy away from males. Rat has not proved to me that men have legal right to use any female toilet but with self id, I believe they would if they wished to.

So our privacy comes down to how much males want to allow us privacy. How is this not about women and girls rights?

But do other people have a stake? That's the thing, it doesn't look to me like self-id makes any odds to anyone else at all really!

Only women and girls. But perhaps we don't count?

But do other people have a stake? That's the thing, it doesn't look to me like self-id makes any odds to anyone else at all really!

Yes. I have no interest in whether you personally think so.

Only women and girls. But perhaps we don't count?

No.

"I would also want assurances from the gvt that trans people will still get access to medical/psychiatric services should they need them"

IMHO, since I think this whole exercise in self id is an attempted vote winner (gone wrong) and a money saving exercise you will most likely not get any assurances.

If you're trans and want self-ID purely to make your difficult life that little bit easier, but there's this group of people intent on you not having that - and you can't see what tangible effect self-ID could have on anyone at all except you and other transpeople... I mean what are you going to think about that??

If you can't see what the effect is going to be on other people, you need to start by acknowledging that other people exist, have boundaries and have rights.

I respect the right of transpeople to live in the way they want to, to modify their bodies the way they want to, to use whatever names and pronouns they want to.

I don't agree that transpeople have the right to tell me how I should refer to myself (I am not 'cis'). They do not have the right to insist that I 'identify with the gender I was assigned at birth'. People who are clearly male do not have the right to invade women's spaces, just because they say they feel like a woman in their head.

IMHO, since I think this whole exercise in self id is an attempted vote winner (gone wrong) and a money saving exercise you will most likely not get any assurances.

Agree with this. I don't think the Tories did this out of the goodness of their hearts.

All boundaries are transphobic.

I don’t think people wanting de-medicalisation is necessary unreasonable. they don’t like the insinuation that it’s an illness. To them it does not feel like an illness.

It is unreasonable for society to accommodate this position that if the person does not feel that their delusion is an illness, and does not like their delusion to be categorized as an illness, it should not be.

Gender identity is the only delusional illness that is treated in such a contradictory way. Transgender advocates want hormone and surgical treatment for an illness they say they suffer from while claiming it is not an illness.

It's possible to find a process arduous and protracted but believe that there should still be a a process (as I've said previously on this board, I'm an adoptive mother, don't talk to me about protracted, demeaning and arduous processes.....)

Why not lobby to make the process efficient, respectful and supportive? Rather than abolish the process altogether?

I don’t think the sanitary bins are that expensive. In Sweden for instance many many toilets are unisex and all have sanitary bins. You go to the loo and wash your hands in the sink and then leave, usually straight into a public space, so there is never the opportunity to be alone with any other people.

@RatRolyPoly your list at "Mon 30-Apr-18 18:11:26" just shows how much ground we have already given (had taken from us) and how the thanks we get for all the accommodating we have done in the past has led to middle aged women being heckled and called a hate group as they try to discuss the erasure of their rights.

"Sorry, been at work all day." @peakpants you don't need to apologise for being at work, I expect most of us were anyway, which is why today was so quiet!

" I don't think a doctor signing a form is some sort of magic solution to distinguishing between good trans and bad trans." Neither do I since I believe rapists have managed to get them, hence the topsy turbey we don't give a shit about women world we live in. But at least it puts a break on the chancers who might just self id and use it as a way to get into women's groups and activities.

If men were bothered by the idea of trans men in their groups and spaces do you really think we would even be discussing this?

@Rat "Because it would make it easier for them to get their documents and go about their daily life in the way that feels right to them." How is it going to change life for trans people. How will it make any difference at all?

"protracted, demeaning and unnecessarily arduous." like just about everything biological that happens to women then?

"The more I've read and the more I've engaged in these discussions, the more I feel that in fact self-ID makes very little odds to anyone except the transpeople applying for a GRC themselves. " You really, honestly feel it makes no difference to you if women' becomes meaningless? I could honestly cry at that thought.

Sadly, I don't think self id will be enough, nothing is enough if you think you were born female when you were born male. We cannot bestow femaleness onto anyone. We are not hanging onto a special secret ingredient. It's just biology. Denying it really has undone women's rights.

"a societal shift towards awareness and acceptance of transpeople" how is Girl Guides being accepting of natal girls who don't feel very feminine when it will encourage them to go elsewhere? Please lets not kids ourselves this is about trans men or trans boys.