Trans women are women answers to Terfmore's questions

[SupermatchGame]

Terfmore. I don't want to override the ASD discussion that's developed...
but SupermacthGame: you gave your explanation why "trans women are women". I was hoping for a coherent argument.
Could you respond to my request that you clarify your position; I found it difficult to understand tbh I found it incoherent.
You could start a new thread if you like.

Ok, as you suggest:

upthread you say -
"Trans women are women because 'woman' (or female) is not only a legal designation but having a gender identity of 'woman' is a legitimate female gender identity with some basis in biology and physiology. No-one said this is an exact science. It's pragmatic." -
Could you break this down -

1. what do you mean "woman" is a legal designation? what law are you referring to? do you mean "adult human female"?

I mean the category ‘female’ not only has a biological definition, but it is also a legal category that can be conferred to a person following GRC. I’m using ‘woman’ and ‘female’ interchangeably here. Eg as specified in the Royal College of Psychiatrist’s Guidance on gender dysphoria:
"Once a Gender Regulation [sic] Certificate has been issued, the applicant must, in accordance with the provisions of that certificate, be identified as a man or a woman and not a ‘trans man’ or ‘trans woman’. "

Quoting the Gender Recognition Act 2004:
"Where a full gender recognition certificate is issued to a person, the person’s gender becomes for all purposes the acquired gender (so that, if the acquired gender is the male gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a man and, if it is the female gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a woman)." (my bold)

2. what does "gender identity of woman is a legitimate female gender identity" mean.

It means that regardless of natal sex, if a person identifies as a woman, and they have been diagnosed or confirmed as having a ‘female gender identity’ then to all intents and purposes they are classed as having a female gender identity that legitimises medical and legal transition. I’m not sure taken in isolation this clause makes much sense because it is part of a larger sentence.

3. in what way is an identity legitimate (and presumably there will be non or illegitimate identity?)

Legitimate as in confirmed by psychiatrists and/ or psychologists. As in a (cross sex) gender identity that is not caused by some co-morbidity or underlying pathology. (Not caused by anything other than GID/ or 'transgenderism'). An identity that can then be further legitimised by changing legal status.

4. do you mean identity "has some basis in biology and physiology"? what do you mean by identity? (it means different things to different people).

I mean gender identity (the sex with which an individual identifies with or feels they are) has genetic, biological, environmental and societal causes. (Although you could say that about most aspects of identity - using the biopsychosocial model). What evidence there is points to this. I’ve highlighted a lot of it on the other thread. I was abbreviating my language and focusing on the non environmental causes - by biology I meant genes and biochemistry including hormonal influences. By physiology I meant the physiology of the brain as in brain structure. Is There Something Unique about the Transgender Brain? www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/

5. What is "pragmatic"? I think you are referring to "trans women are women" not being exact but we just have to live with it. but I may have that wrong?

Not 100% perfect solution. No-one has yet found a way to ‘cure’ transsexualism. Treatment alleviates dysphoria. In many cases it supports the person to lead a happier life in which they can function better psychologically, emotionally, socially and occupationally. Sometimes also in terms of sexual relationships. It’s not a perfect transition - trans women do not acquire wombs, trans men do not have real testicles (not that they all want to?) Not all trans people can resemble their new sex as much as they would ideally like. But it can be good enough. It can support improved health outcomes for some individuals. It is also a solution that most of society (and it’s main organisations) seems to accept. Hence pragmatic, not perfect, solution.

@womanformallyknownaswoman

"They really are wanting us to give something up - so that non-women can gain access, under whatever guise, to women and children - it really comes down to aggrieved sexual entitlement"

This suggests you think trans people, specifically mtf are sexual predators and peadophiles. Really? Please clarify because that's how it reads...

Its just that i think you're a twat and you're boring the shit out of me

@PoulaFisch

The bottom line: some people with female-sexed bodies want same-sex provision when the sexed-bodies of humans are significant to the provision. Safety plays a part but so does privacy and dignity.

For example, many people with female-sexed bodies want to undress in provision that prohibits people with males-sexed bodies from entering.

For clarity, they don't mind about the race, sexual orientation or gender identity of the female-sexed bodied people using the provision, they just want to exclude people with male-sexed bodies.

@MsBeaujangles

Those are valid concerns, however the statement I quoted doesn't say that.

I don't mean to derail but I want to present you with a scenario I've thought about that helps me find clarity on these issues.

For context I used to be 100% trans inclusive so I have made all the same arguments you are making and have changed my mind in the face over overwhelming evidence.

Lets say that tomorrow I was in a terrible accident and the doctors use cutting edge technology to place my 100% female brain (with its objectively female structure, female socialization, and female personality) into Hafthor Bjornsson's body.

I would absolutely have a female 'gender identity' if such a thing does exist, and I imagine I would have a shitload of body dysphoria to go along with it.

The questions start to come up about how I would live my life afterwards:

"Should I use a womens bathroom or changeroom?"

Heck no. Even though I have proof that I am a woman on the inside (which no transwoman can possibly have) I still have a mans body. Male bodies belong in the male change room. That's what the changerooms are for. I would feel awkward as fuck using it and I would probably try to find an alternative if possible but I would never even think that I had a need or right to use the womens room thereby impeding other women's sense of safety and dignity.

"Should I be allowed to play on a women's sports team?"
I have been involved in roller derby for about a decade and it is a sport with lots of womens only teams and competitions. My local team is co-ed but if it was a womans only team it would be immoral for me to insist on joining it. I would be dissapointed that I couldn't play on the team and more but I wouldn't even think that I had a right to be there. I know that would be both massively unfair and undermine the important social role that an all womens team plays in supporting women. I would offer to coach, or referee, or otherwise find a way to support them and be involved socially.

"By what if I had surgery to feminise my body?"
I probably would want/need surgery to feminize my body and make me more comfortable in my day to day life. That wouldn't change the basis for either of the previous answer. There's no amount of surgery or hormones Hafthor Bjornsson's body could go through to make it 'practically' a woman.

And on the topic of legality, under what circumstance would it even make sense to classify my brain in Hafthor Bjornson's body as a 'woman' for legal purposes. For crime tracking? At best it should be recorded as a subset of male crime, since I would be capable of committing crimes that are not really possible in a womens body (like crushing a mans skull with my bare hands). For prison sentences? Nope. For other statistics like height, weight, health, employment? Nope, nope, nope.

There's not really a single measure I can think of where it would be beneficial to class my brain in Hafthor's body (whether I feminize it or not) as female or any type of women. And if my objectively female brain and identity aren't enough, then a mans subjective say-so that he has a female brain certainly isn't.

Of course, this new me would absolutely me deserving of empathy, acceptance, and probably a few special considerations (especially within the male side of sex segregation). That's where most of us are at with transwomen.

Transwomen are men, they should be in a mens prison. Within that prison they should be safe and treated with respect. Their crimes should be classed as male crimes though it may also be appropriate to track gender identity or transition status within the sex. Tranwomen should play on mens sports teams or co ed teams. etc etc

I love that Bloodmagic - incredibly well thought out.

Yes, great post, Blood.

There's not really a single measure I can think of where it would be beneficial to class my brain in Hafthor's body (whether I feminize it or not) as female or any type of women.

Perhaps exams / tests / interview performance? Because we would be measuring how someone who had grown up with female socialisation performed, albeit with the waters muddied by the examiner / interview panel responding to someone who presented as male. But otherwise, no, there isn't any area where it would be logical or appropriate for you to be recorded as "female"

If I woke up tomorrow in a man’s body, my mind would feel out of place and wrong

Well yes I’d be traumatised. Same as if I woke up in my sisters body, or three foot taller, or black.
If my mind had been born in those bodies though there’s no way to say if I’d feel out of place or not.

Excellent post, BloodMagic

@peakpants

So the way forward is to deny that trans people exist and get rid of their existing rights then?

Has anyone actually suggested that or are you trying to goad/troll here?

@peakpants
if trans people say that is how they feel
Why should I trust them? I recieve several emails per week at work that tell me that my mailbox is about to be deactivated and I need to click some link and enter all my login details to retain my account. If people will lie to try to obtain my username and password, they could lie to try to gain access to the ladies loos or the rape crisis centre.

why should your version be accepted over theirs?
Because my version is provable with evidence (a pelvic exam will demonstrate sex reliably), their version isn't provable unless they have GD, which can be confirmed by scanning the brain (www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17352-8).

Has anyone actually suggested that or are you trying to goad/troll here?

It really has been suggested, lots. Actually whenever someone questions it I'm usually in the habit of linking several threads where repealing the GRA is openly discussed by a whole raft of posters - there are enough to choose from! But frankly I've done it so many times now it's getting tedious.

Happy to PM links to you if you really don't believe me, but I promise you - hand on heart - there are those here who would see the GRA repealed. And we're not talking one or two.

And gender dysphoria is distress at your own sexed body. It doesn't mean you are the opposite sex.

The GRA is an arguably obsolete piece of legislation which creates a now unworkable legal fiction, IMO. The Equality Act is sufficient. It's a perfectly valid opinion about a specific law to think it could and should be repealed. It doesn't mean you think trans people don't exist or don't deserve protection from abuse, harassment and discrimination.

I did miss the 'transpeople dont exist' comments

I think everyone knows they exist don't they?

It's a perfectly valid opinion about a specific law to think it could and should be repealed.

I agree, it is!

It doesn't mean you think trans people don't exist or don't deserve protection from abuse, harassment and discrimination.

No, I'm sure it needn't mean that at all.

It seems to me though that for some people that is a line in the sand, and that's totally okay. But it's worth pointing out that not everyone feels the same, just so folks can work out where exactly they fall on the spectrum of positions represented here.

No, I'm sure it needn't mean that at all.

lol

I suppose it depends what you mean by ‘trans people don’t exist’ if you mean that people can’t actually be born in the wrong body then yes I’ve seen lots of people say that.

I dont know what rat means by 'transpeople dont exist'

I believe that there people who believe they are the opposite sex to their sex organs and/or were born in the wrong body

I believe that there are people who believe in god and think they will go to heaven when they die

So I believe in christians as well

All this "I believe".

It's like we have been taken over by fairy tales.

Well yeah trousers

But ive no idea what is meant by 'trans people don't exist' so im struggling to word it

We all exist.

It's what you might call a "thought terminating cliche".