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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

transgender medicine

115 replies

superbstarling · 24/04/2018 22:44

I'm new here, you all peaked me. I across this which I think some of you will find interesting!

OP posts:
Ereshkigal · 25/04/2018 20:16

I think if the aim is to get the majority of the population on-side regarding thinking trans is a ridiculous concept and should not be recognised at all

But just for the record that is not what I think and have never said anything of the sort.

SusanBunch · 25/04/2018 20:19

Yeah, sorry, that was a bit unclear, Upstart. He was saying that nobody is born gay- they become gay due to traumatic circumstances.

I do not believe that is true. I don't know about a gene as such, but I do not think that we choose sexual orientation or that it is a result of experiences- I think it is something that we are born with- a natural attraction to either sex or to both. I don't have enough experience or knowledge of gender dysphoria to make any comment, but I don't think it is caused by a father who doesn't hug his son (which is what the guy in the video says).

SusanBunch · 25/04/2018 20:21

Erish I note that you didn't answer my question of whether you would sacrifice abortion rights if you were guaranteed that self-ID would be scrapped. I.e. would you vote for someone like Trump if you knew he would be tough on trans rights but at the same time tough on abortion?

Ereshkigal · 25/04/2018 20:26

I note that you didn't really engage with several of my points, so that's too bad.

SusanBunch · 25/04/2018 20:30

Yup, I think I know the answer to that one then....

UpstartCrow · 25/04/2018 20:34

Well that's like Ereshkigal saying 'would you vote for Trump if he promised to introduce self ID' and then announcing she knows the answer if you said the question was goady and muddying the water.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 25/04/2018 20:40

It's interesting the way all sorts of groups, normally with completely opposing views, are coming together to fight this massive threat to women's rights.

Article in the times (sorry I don't have a share token) www.thetimes.co.uk/article/left-and-right-unite-to-fight-massachusetts-bathroom-law-sdthcbl0s

About how feminists and conservative Christians are coming together - Hands across the Aisle.

This issue transcends "left" and "right" and brings together everyone who gives a shit about women.

Ereshkigal · 25/04/2018 20:42

Think what you like. And so will I, about your completely non-disingenuous posts, your excellent arguments and good faith discussion. I think transgender activism is a huge threat to women's rights and I do think it needs to be challenged for the greater good. I would have to make that decision if it ever came down to it. My voting choices aren't your concern. Like everyone I have the right to vote for whoever I personally feel is the best or best of all bad options, or abstain. Which is what I'm probably going to do here, next week and in the foreseeable future if nothing changes.

SusanBunch · 25/04/2018 20:43

Well that's like Ereshkigal saying 'would you vote for Trump if he promised to introduce self ID' and then announcing she knows the answer if you said the question was goady and muddying the water.

I am not pro self-ID.

I would not vote for Trump in a million years.

I would not compromise my integrity by supporting an organisation that did not support women (even if they agreed on one narrow point, but for different reasons).

My concern is credibility. I felt the same when Theresa May sold out by getting in bed with the DUP for instance.

I do not enjoy seeing stuff like this on Twitter:
twitter.com/L_12345ac/status/989172838354636801

I don't want to read stuff like 'Mumsnet users, who have declared their support for a right-wing anti-LGBT group that believes in conversion therapy' in the press.

That's just me, but it's where I am coming from.

Ereshkigal · 25/04/2018 20:45

I don't want to read stuff like 'Mumsnet users, who have declared their support for a right-wing anti-LGBT group that believes in conversion therapy' in the press.

We can't control what lies they make up or the exaggerations they make, You are not the thought police here. No one has declared their support for this group, so that would be a lie.

SusanBunch · 25/04/2018 20:48

You are not the thought police here. No one has declared their support for this group, so that would be a lie

I never claimed to be the thought police. Just expressing my own thoughts, same as you are. We just happen to disagree on them. If you can robustly defend your views, so can I.

UpstartCrow · 25/04/2018 20:51

Susan, no one asked you if you would vote for Trump. You were the one that decided that another poster would.

You were the one that introduced the fallacy that A = 3, and made comments about there being a gay and trans gene. I dont want to see that being quoted in the press either.

MyAuntyBadger · 25/04/2018 20:53

It's interesting the way all sorts of groups, normally with completely opposing views, are coming together to fight this massive threat to women's rights.

Yes, and according to many transgender people and allies, the most intolerance comes from older, right wing, white men. So why are the TA's focusing on mumsnet? Easy target because we're mainly women? Misogyny? I have seen a lot of gender critical views from men lately, yet they are not the focus of twitter hatred, that honour seems entirely reserved from mumsnet. Curious...

SusanBunch · 25/04/2018 20:55

and made comments about there being a gay and trans gene. I don't want to see that being quoted in the press either.

Uh what? I was quoting what the guy said in the video. This was literally his opening line: 'there is no gay or trans gene so when gay/trans people say 'i was born this way', they are wrong'.

Can't see the controversy myself. Or do you agree with him that people become gay because of their upbringing?

Ereshkigal · 25/04/2018 20:59

Susan, the point I was trying to make is that it is not in your control what others do or say (on either side of the argument) or how they approach it, so it's not anyone else's issue what you personally do or don't want to see in the paper. We will all have different ways of approaching this. We're not a hive mind. As I've expressed, I personally think your approach as expressed earlier is naive and won't be effective. You think you know my mind better than I do. I find that quite goady and think your prying into my political intentions is uncalled for and none of your business.

So as I said, let's leave it there and agree to disagree.

FarFrom · 25/04/2018 21:01

Myaunt-
Maybe because mn isn’t known as intolerant specifically.
I’ve been here a long time with different names. The trans posts depress me no end. I don’t post on reddit or twitter and I certainly don’t go on known extremist websites/ forums. I post on here because it is here that it shocks me. And it also shocks me to see feminists posting the link above- but also feminists celebrating the daily mail. I find that really hard to understand given the contempt that the daily mail shows women.

Ereshkigal · 25/04/2018 21:01

I have seen a lot of gender critical views from men lately, yet they are not the focus of twitter hatred, that honour seems entirely reserved from mumsnet. Curious...

Isn't it? Men get a free pass in my experience. It's women from who nothing short of 100% centring, support and validation is expected.

SupermatchGame · 25/04/2018 21:07

he is also surprised to be working alongside radical feminists and lesbians,

Not radical feminists.

Ultra-conservative transmisogynistic hypocrites who are prepared to betray their values in support of a prejudiced ideology.

PoulaFisch · 25/04/2018 21:15

Hi Left. Yes I do have concerns about the validity of any research, but I'm more concerned that right wing conservative ant lgbt groups are being given a voice here to support a trans critical agenda.
Also, the Endocrine Society in its closing statement does state more extensive research needs to be done. Indicating they're not approaching trans care without caution.
SusanBunch I'm pretty much in agreement with most of your posts here. Thanks for your calm and cautionary input.

MyAuntyBadger · 25/04/2018 21:15

Erishkigal I think we're an easy target. I watched the video of Julie Bindel trapped and surrounded by young men on the stairwell at the recent meeting and wondered how different that would have been if each of those women had a male companion with them. I think the masked activists would have dispersed with very little said. The intimidation just proves our point.

SusanBunch · 25/04/2018 21:20

Thank you Poula Smile

Ereshkigal · 25/04/2018 21:20

I agree we're the easy target here. I also think we inspire the most narcissistic rage from transactivists.

FarFrom · 25/04/2018 21:22

Ereahkigal- what do you mean? What do you see as ‘the most narcissistic rage’ (and what do you think that means)?

Ereshkigal · 25/04/2018 21:23

Narcissistic injury. Being told no or not being centred at all times.

StarkStaring · 25/04/2018 21:38

I agree with the uneasiness about the religious right being involved - to any one who is anti-science.

But maybe common sense comes about from being in the centre of two extremes - the TRA,s being the other extreme.

Check out the fab range of women on this panel!

handsacrosstheaislewomen.com/2017/02/17/biology-isnt-bigotry-why-sex-matters-in-the-age-of-gender-identity/