Our problem is MRAs, not trans people.

[LightofaSilveryMoon]

Seeing the recent Bristol footage, the fascism of masked blokes telling women they can go no further to a legitimate meeting organised by women.

We're just dealing with MRAs again, really, aren't we? Men's Rights Activists (MRA) pushing the Transgender cause, for their own Men's Rights ends. Trans identity being used cynically. To deprive women of their identity and rights

I have a problem with violent, pompous, pathetically authoritarian men who mask their faces, and who seek to intimidate women.

The two aren't mutually exclusive.

Yeah we have a troll problem. Keep reporting them.

"Nothing to lose" is not a safe space for anyone. Feminism has a relationship with all males if not a concern.

Think some of the trolls post on here and then take it back to Twitter to report the 'evidence' of Mumsnet being transphobic. Just keep reporting it if you see it.

Agreed that hightea could surely only be a troll.

Is it activists who want to compete against women in sports or have access to all female areas no matter what stage of transition? I never understand this stance of “it’s not trans folk”

So.. it is transfolk?

I haven’t changed sex, I am and always will be trans and specifically a transwoman.

It’s heartening to see posts in this thread as generally positive about trans people, thank you.

I’d probably lay the blame at TRAs/MRAs myself if I’m honest. The majority of trans people are just happy to get on with their lives (in relative peace).

A few years ago I was involved with someone whom, in hindsight, is an obvious TRA. Their behaviour was appalling and inappropriate (entering a changing room to go swimming pre op was probably her worst offence).

Neither me or my partner believe we have the right to do that, as both of us want to coexist with women and we don’t achieve that by forcing ourselves on others.

I won’t speak for others, it is for them to do so themselves, but I’d like to apologise if my behaviour in public or on social media has in anyway offended anyone and I will try my very best to do better in the future.

Holy fucking fuck, that last comment was hands down the most transphobic thing I've seen on mumsnet.

Do help out with the reporting, Rat. Many first time posters posting this type of stuff at the moment and not in good faith. One might almost suspect the veracity of opinion and motive for expressing it, don't you think?

Already conceded Lang - blatant troll. Not the only deletion on the thread though, sadly.

I didn't see the deleted comment by brand new poster @highteaandcake but I'll put money on it they are a TRA or ally out to try and "prove" that MN is transphobic.

There seems to be a bit of a trend for this lately, especially after the EH data theft situation.

@Bronners78 - I doubt very much you have anything to apologise for, you don't sound anything like the TRAs that most gender critical women have an issue with

Bronners78 ❤️

madbaddaddy "@xxmarksthespot "The basic concept of being "trans" is a problem." is the debate that resumes the morning after the last TRA has given up and gone home, and Self-ID is no more than a receding memory."

No it's the debate that is at the heart of the issue. That is, that a man can declare himself a woman on his own say-so is where it all begins, and that we are all expected to go along with that and the consequences is where we are right now. That basic concept is flawed. The very idea is flawed, and the whole trans house of cards is built on it. They know this, and I guess this is why my last post was deleted. Must not question.

So what do you want xxmarks? Transpeople all just to "stop being so silly"? I really don't understand the end game, but I'd like to.

Because even if the law stopped affording them any recognition of their stated gender, even if society stopped it's general move towards accepting them in that gender - in spaces and in sports, they would still proclaim themselves to be it because they would believe it. And a good many of us would carry on accepting them as that on a day to day basis.

So if they won't stop saying they're trans, and we won't stop believing them... What on earth does it mean for that to be the problem?

I mean I'm all up for debating how far trans identity should be accommodated in law and in society, but I'm not at all up for whatever the consequence is of considering the basic concept flawed. Because surely, surely that sentiment is transphobia itself when you think it through to its natural conclusion.

And that's why your post was deleted FYI. That very tennet is "decidedly iffy" - MN's words.

I got the impression that the "masked blokes" were cis allies rather than full-blown MRAs.

When you are preventing women speaking freely I think this is the finest of fine lines to be treading. So fine it may be none existent. Baby MRAs - give them time.

I fear you may well be right, Kitty.

I suppose I was just thinking (hoping) that at least some of the "masked blokes" were foolish young 'woke' students supporting the latest trendy cause and that they'll move on to something else which is less aggressive when they grow up.

@xxmarksthespot "The basic concept of being "trans" is a problem."

I'm trying to picture what this board would look like once the bombs stop falling and the poppies get a chance to re-appear. (Colour me "highly optimistic")

Yes this debate is central and continues in spite of the warlike nature of the arena. MNHQ should be prouder to host this corner of it. This is where the grown-up* thinking happens, and I hope you never stop asking the painful questions.

*bee produce excluded

xxmarksthespot Are you refering to the fairly recent redefinition of trans? That is, the unhelpful change from trans being short for transsexual? Which now means trans = anyone who claims to be and anyone who is gender-non-conforming.

Transsexual meaning those with gender dysphoria so severe they can function well and happily only when they have medically transitioned and can navigate their lives post-op taking on a gender role of the opposite sex.

That is a mental health issue that needs to be addressed by medical doctors and mental health professionals. And it is between a gender dysphoric individual and their doctors. Provided we protect both sex and gender reassignment as is currently the case, that basic concept of being trans=transsexual is not a problem.

I hope the masked men who kidnapped and attacked Julie Bindel is being treated as a misogynist hate crime against women.

I got the impression that the "masked blokes" were cis allies rather than full-blown MRAs.

One of the 'cis allies' at the meeting in Bristol tweeted this in November 2017 defending why he'd 'punch a terf'. I'd say that sounds like an MRA to me, certainly a nasty misogynist.

The 'far more oppressive experiences' refer to trans people btw because, you know, us women have never suffered oppression.

The debate on MN as I understand it is usually about how far the law should accommodate when there are competing interests between women and trans people or how it can or should be expected to validate specific world views.

I think most TRAs are MRAs tbh. Just they found a way to win more 'fans' by appearing to be progressive and not the same old misogynistic shit.

The morning after the terrorist action of masked men surrounding women on the steps at Bristol the spox person for SU said on their FB page that the transgender members of SU never go on the actions because their mental health is too fragile to cope with confrontation. Instead they send what they call "cis allies" to bully and terrorize women.

Sounds like they didn't get the response they wanted from that story so now they are telling a new one. The story about the violence enacted against the Misters Uncut member seems to have disappeared also.

@thebewilderness - I'm pretty sure Posh Josh deleted his fawning post to Munroe Berdorf where he tripped himself up over the I was there/I wasn't there claims.

He went MIA for a few days but think he might be back in action now.