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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Roots of Misogynistic Rage

107 replies

womanformallyknownaswoman · 23/04/2018 08:21

When one has been on the receiving end of it, it’s like the male is trying to murder(silence) women by destroying them, their lives and spaces in any way possible. They will not bear any woman denying them what they perceive, in their disordered thinking, is their entitlement - to sex, to access to children (as their possessions and /or sex), to unfettered free rein to use and abuse as they see fit for their own ends.

And new research suggests the anger, hostility and short fuse that accompany a man's narcissism tend to be directed toward straight women.
”Heterosexual, narcissistic men become enraged at people who deny them gratification, whether it's social status, having a trophy partner or sexual gratification," said lead study author Scott Keiller, a clinical psychologist and assistant professor of psychology at Kent State University Tuscarawas in Ohio.

www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=118736

From my observation and experience, I think its projected anger often. Many males are conditioned to believe that women owe them. Women are the ideal slaves in their minds. Somehow half-males' character hasn't developed sufficiently to separate out from the idealised slave to the reality of a separate human being. So when a woman says no, disagrees and/or rejects them and their behaviour, the misogynists can't contain that - it doesn't compute in their minds. Somehow their sense of self is immature and toddler like in the “Mum must give or I'll tantrum”. However adult male tantrums are extremely dangerous and harmful to women.

I’ve also observed misogynists have a lot infantile rage at their father, frequently because he is unavailable/violent/ gaslighted them, but the mother's the one more present and available to take their anger out on. She’s also most concerned with their wellbeing often, and is frequently emotionally available for them. When a child can’t take their anger to their father, they displace onto their mother. They copy their role models and it cements into adulthood.

This isn't the source of my supposition however is evidence towards it.

In their final statements, inmates express the most gratitude and sorrow to their mothers. This isn’t too surprising: studies have shown that nearly all death row inmates “have a history of parental abandonment, foster care and/or institutionalization.” Typically, the mother is more present than the father in their lives.

priceonomics.com/what-death-row-inmates-say-in-their-last-words/

The ones on death row are the ones who haven’t been groomed into covert abuse – they are the “low-hanging fruit” so to speak. The equally dangerous ones imo, from a societal and individual perspective (unless of course you have already paid with your life), are those who abuse covertly using coercive control, as we see in the latest thuggish behaviour at Bristol. They operate within the letter of the law, if not the spirit, and are enabled by wilful blindness on behalf of politicians, the law, plus its enforcement in its different guises.

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CritEqual · 25/04/2018 10:36

I'm not trying to argue female violence is the only vector into misogyny, but it's worth a consideration. Additionally I do believe as physical punishment of children decreases we are seeing an overall reduction in violence.

My lean is that gendered based violence does have a genuinely different pathology, as amongst generally violent males there is often a cultural taboo against hitting a woman. Of the men who do hit women I believe there is an element of sadism to it.

I don't entirely understand where this resistance to men as devoted and involved fathers is coming from? Surely it's as close to self evident as it's possible to be that decent parenting from either mum or dad is preferable to not? That both men and women perhaps bring different but complimentary benefits to the equation is not an inherently unreasonable hypothesis either.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 25/04/2018 12:24

I don't entirely understand where this resistance to men as devoted and involved fathers is coming from?

The focus of the post is the roots of misogynistic rage, not other males.

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womanformallyknownaswoman · 25/04/2018 12:30

If anyone needs to be convinced of the gendered nature of crime, here's a link to a report about women and the criminal justice system.

The perpetrator of physical abuse against females was almost as equally likely to be the mother as the father (33% and 36% respectively). For males, the father was more likely to be the perpetrator of physical abuse, with 41% of victims being abused by their father and 24% by their mother.

Note these stats on abuse as a child are based on self reporting from a survey - not verified by anyone else or service. It's a common factor that many male abusers insist they were victims of child abuse but in fact in group treatment admit they were lying (Ref Lundy Bancroft)

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/572043/women-and-the-criminal-justice-system-statistics-2015.pdf

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CritEqual · 25/04/2018 15:54

Thank you for providing some earnest data, and of course you're right men are overwhelmingly the perpetrators as the data shows. However that isn't the stinging rebuttal to my position that I suspect you think it is.

What I am interested in is exploring the roots of this problem, and seeing as the spanking of children in the UK is not illegal and one is allowed to use "reasonable chastisement" it's hardly going to show up in the crime statistics you generously posted.

I've tried to be crystal clear on this point, but I've clearly failed. I'm not articulating a position that I am 100% convinced that maternal abuse necessarily leads to violent men, because the question hasn't really been asked and researched before. I'm simply saying it might be a worthwhile place to look.

Tonnes of good thoughts have been manifested on this thread, and what I am submitting isn't intended to take away, but merely to add to the discussion. I don't know why you would be so against an examination of spanking in context of understanding male violence. Maybe you spanked your own children and don't want the spotlight shone on it?

Maybe my line reasoning will prove fruitless, I'm willing to accept that, but it's not an unreasonable place to start, and seeing as male violence continues shouldn't be be willing to entertain anything and everything in order to combat it?

theicegodmother · 25/04/2018 16:25

why are men (including "transwomen") so violent?

StormTreader · 25/04/2018 16:58

"I've often thought that heterosexual misogynists must find themselves in an uncomfortable psychological place. They hate women, but unless they want to be single and celibate for the rest of their then, they also need them. There must be huge cognitive dissonance in seeing a group of people as simultaneously both inferior and desirable."

Yep, I think this is the root of a lot of it. Their identity is totally dependant on being "a big man", "top dog" etc, in having all the power.
Wanting women means that the woman now has some power over them, and they HATE it, so it gets turned into fury that she must be playing some kind of trick or con, conspiring or cheating in some way to STEAL power that should be theirs, that his weakness is her FAULT. Thats why she should be "taught a lesson" or "put in her place" - the lesson being that all power rightfully belongs to him, and the place being below him in every way.

I think the hate that some gay men feel towards women is tied up in this as well - they see the power that a stunning bombshell can have over men and resent that they don't have that same power. It always seems to be the more feminine gay men that hate like that as well, maybe because they see women as occupying the space that they want - to be desired and powerful over other men.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 25/04/2018 17:01

All the research to date shows that men are more violent because they are conditioned to be -

  1. By not being set appropriate limits on their entitlement (toddler tantrums, disrespect to females, harming others and aggressive behaviour normalised, downplayed and excused) - the golden child can do not wrong syndrome
  2. Some contend there is also a genetic predator element amongst some males (psychopathy)

Re spanking - firstly your attacks on my parenting, putting words in my mouth plus imagining what I am thinking or feeling are illuminating, if wildly inaccurate.

Secondly thank you for sharing your opinion. Without research or stats that back up your personal assertions, it's is what it is - an opinion.

Feel free to write your own post dedicated to explore your personal opinions. It's a large topic after all.

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womanformallyknownaswoman · 25/04/2018 17:04

1st rule of misogyny: Women are responsible for what men do.

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CritEqual · 25/04/2018 17:55

No, and again I'll reiterate it. Someone who commits violence is ultimately responsible for it. However examining causes is not the same as looking for excuses. Just because someone experiences violence as a child is not license to commit it against others in later life.

If however you can switch the tracks away from a potentially negative outcome why not seek to do so? We know for example that pedophiles were often abused as children, thus it's vital that victims of paedophiles are provided support and counselling to try and arrest that cycle.

If you don't spank your children then there is nothing about your parenting I would seek to attack. What is your stance on it by the way?

AngryAttackKittens · 25/04/2018 22:38

Yep, I think this is the root of a lot of it. Their identity is totally dependant on being "a big man", "top dog" etc, in having all the power.
Wanting women means that the woman now has some power over them, and they HATE it, so it gets turned into fury that she must be playing some kind of trick or con, conspiring or cheating in some way to STEAL power that should be theirs, that his weakness is her FAULT. Thats why she should be "taught a lesson" or "put in her place" - the lesson being that all power rightfully belongs to him, and the place being below him in every way.

Precisely, and perfectly illustrated by the book by misogynist in chief Paul Elam in which the cover features a picture of a woman's arse. Thus implying that women unfairly control men with our oh so tempting bums.

In terms of the attempted derail into women being responsible for male violence via spanking...

Hmm
LastGirlOnTheLeft · 25/04/2018 23:13

This is so interesting. I'm in NI and have travelled all over the world, mainly to countries coming out of conflict. One thing...men in countries coming out of conflict are useless!! Worse - they are mean and lack empathy! They lose their identity (many of them join armies or gangs that encourages this loss of identity) and once the war is over all they fought for is gone!!! They see themselves as losers and are acutely aware that is their place in the world.

Suicides are highest in areas where conflict ends, as males cannot cope with losing their identity and support strands.

It's an interesting conundrum.....I want to show support for men but at the same time my loyalty is mainly with women, so if you abuse women, you want to say fuck off!!!! But don't want to find him completing suicide!!

thebewilderness · 26/04/2018 02:42

I am 100% convinced that maternal abuse necessarily leads to violent men, because the question hasn't really been asked and researched before. I'm simply saying it might be a worthwhile place to look.

You are quite wrong about that. However since you are 100% convinced there is no point to your reading the reams of research on the matter since you also claim they do not exist.

thebewilderness · 26/04/2018 02:47

We know for example that pedophiles were often abused as children, thus it's vital that victims of paedophiles are provided support and counselling to try and arrest that cycle.

No we do not know that . What we know is that both pedophiles and abusive males who have been convicted of crimes claim they were abused as children. That is a very different thing.

thebewilderness · 26/04/2018 02:51

Research shows that the vast majority of men who are abused as children are adamantly opposed to abusing children, their wives, or anyone else.

RealityHasALiberalBias · 26/04/2018 03:05

Taking a slightly different tack - the primatologist Richard Wrangham has done studies which rather depressingly suggest that male violence is innate in all the great apes. Gratuitous violence which starkly resembles human behaviour has been observed in gorilla, chimp and orangutan groups.

The only species other than humans that appear to have developed cultural methods of neutralising male violence are bonobos.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 26/04/2018 05:19

Yes I agree I think abusive males are nearer to alpha apes than human men. The alpha male ape, when it takes over leadership of a group, will kill babies and young apes that it didn't father, beat pregnant females up until they abort (again where the foetuses weren't fathered by him) plus beat up/ drive out adolescent and weaker males. They also systemically rape all of the females.

My understanding of bonobos is not that they developed different cultural methods themselves - it was caused by a freak accident when all the alpha males were killed by contaminated meat - so the group had to readjust to getting along without the conflict the alpha males caused - and they did and thrived very successfully.

Bonobos became matriarchal - well that group in the research did - unsure about the remainder. Correct me if I'm mistaken!

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larrygrylls · 26/04/2018 06:18

Ahhh the myth of the peaceful matriarchal bonobo.

www.skepticink.com/incredulous/2017/10/09/bonobo-myth-demolished/

AngryAttackKittens · 26/04/2018 06:23

I think the tainted meat leading to all the aggressive males dying and the females taking over situation was baboons actually. Which would be notable in that baboons are nasty even by primate standards.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 26/04/2018 06:53

AAK - that would make sense to me - I mixed up my apes - here's the link to The Baboon Troop that Mellowed Out After the Alpha Males Died
bobsutton.typepad.com/my_weblog/2009/11/the-baboon-troop-that-mellowed-out-after-the-alpha-males-died-the-sapolsky-and-share-study.html

Big Mama Bonobo here - no derailing by Bonobos - I take back my matriarchal comment as I now remembered I did read a book by the Dutch male researcher Frans B. M. de Waal and thought his observations of them were not accurate - in fact it showed as much of his male entitlement and stereotyping of women than it did about the accuracy of his observations. However I have this in common with them:

'Big mama' bonobos help younger females stand up for themselves
Female bonobo coalitions more easily defeat aggressive males

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/07/160719105718.htm

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Teapiggy · 26/04/2018 07:16

Reading this has got me worried about my son's. Their dad was emotionally and sexually abusive to me. He pestered me to have more children but was then jealous of them and has even admitted that he did everything he could to keep them away from me. We are now separated and he has no interest other than trying to use them to get to me. so I get the brunt of the boys anger. If he does see them he doesn't listen to a word they say and even talks over them at times. He's got a really strange relationship with his mum where she will do anything he asks but he is just plain abusive to her smashing up her house and belittling her at every opportunity.

I live in fear that my son's will turn out the same way and I really don't know how to counteract it. I try to teach them but you can sometimes see it boiling away beneath the surface.

Their dad honestly believed that I was just a thing for sex and cleaning. He would agree to split things fairly and then do nothing and if I dared to pull him up on it he would try and make me think I'd imagined him even saying it. He was like a toddler if he didn't get what he wanted (mainly sex if he didn't just go ahead anyway). I often got the feeling he had never been told no in his whole life.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 26/04/2018 07:37

@Teapiggy

sending hugs. The main thing is you are separated from your ex. Well done. That signals his behaviour was out of line. And what you describe of him is the "toddler in adult guise". The deliberate under-functioning - agreeing to do something and then withholding is a common abuse tactic that's little understood I have found. I make up his mum has been conditioned to be his punching bag unfortunately and "fawn" - it's often a coping mechanism in domestic and family violence - the women learn to fawn over the guys as a way to keep themselves safe - they are not in touch with the terror under that.

And yes it absolutely sucks that your sons will bring their anger to you and it's important to learn how to not take it on - and turn it back so your sons start to critically think about what's happening otherwise one can become a "punching bag" and can become stressed and ill through those dynamics.

Also is there a healthy male in their lives that can help out? All too often not unfortunately - that is what non-abusers could do more of - teach the sons of abusers healthy ways to channel their anger and to not take it out on women.

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AngryAttackKittens · 26/04/2018 08:03

The deliberate under-functioning - agreeing to do something and then withholding is a common abuse tactic that's little understood I have found.

I often see women joking about this, as if their partner's feigned incompetence is cute, and despair a bit. It's not cute, and he's not actually incapable of making himself cheese on toast or doing a load of washing. It's a form of controlling behavior and a way of getting away with doing as little as possible.

RealityHasALiberalBias · 26/04/2018 08:52

No, bonobos are not matriarchal, and Wrangham’s research does establish that the previous ideas that they were peaceful etc were wrong.

What female bonobos have managed to do it exercise control over the violence of the males by working collectively. It’s still a patriarchal species, and the males are still prone to violence, but the species has developed societal methods of taming - not eradicating - the violence. The same way humans have.

The point is, if he is right, then we’re working against a male biological tendency as well as the cultural structures that exacerbate violent behaviour. Which is not to say it can’t be done - indeed he insists it must be done for our own survival and moral integrity.

Bowlofbabelfish · 26/04/2018 10:01

I see it on here, sometimes, with male posters; the kind who have a male indicator in their username and start posts with 'ladies, thank you in advance for your time' or similar. A relatively small amount of opposition and it's Jekyll and Hyde: you stupid fucking bitches, why don't you get it? How fucking dare you disagree when I've explained so patiently?

My goodness yes. I’ve had several exchanges with men like this on here. If you stay calm and keep to your point eventually they explode with rage. Takes about 8 posts back and forth.
It makes me wonder how they are in real life - do they explode with rage at work if they’re wrong?

I’ve also had this happen to me at work - negotiations with an aggressive male contractor, me keeping to the point in hand and the details of the contract and them, after about twenty minutes, absolutely losing it. It really shocked the management team in the meeting with me. One guy said I should have been more conciliatory. I asked him if he would have been or if that was an expectation of me as a woman and that my behaviour had been calm and professional but the guy had expected me to be walked all over and when I hadn’t bowed down to him he’d blown up. He seemed to get it. As we left the meeting I told him ‘this happens a lot to women, in real life.’

I often wonder if he has thought about it since.

Bowlofbabelfish · 26/04/2018 10:02

The deliberate under-functioning - agreeing to do something and then withholding is a common abuse tactic that's little understood I have found.

I call this strategic incompetence. And I call it out when I see it. And men get very angry when you do.

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