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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"Cis allies" being asked to provide "protection"

256 replies

OlennasWimple · 22/04/2018 01:33

Can we talk about something that seems to be happening a lot at the moment: "cis allies" (note the " " ) are being asked to, in essence, prove their ally credentials but also take the risk and do the hard work apparently in order to protect transwomen (in particular) and transmen from attacks by terfs.

Just in the last week or so, there has been the video of the protestors on the stairs at the Jam Jar venue, which Bristol Sisters has claimed are "cis allies". There was a call out for "cis allies" to escort trans people home at night because they were scared that the terfs were in town and thus trans people were at risk of violent attack. The Free the She Wolf campaign explicitly asked for "cis allies" to attend the protest outside court in order to provide a human shield to protect the trans protesters who were going to be there.

And it's not just in person that "cis allies" are expected to get involved. When I posted the NUS slide presentation on "How to deal with terfs", one of the authors tweeted something along the lines of "Urgh, can a cis ally sort this out", and lo and behold a few new posters popped onto the thread to object to it, and of course MsIntern tweeted that she would get some of her MNHQ pals to take it down. (The slides also contain the suggestion that delegates "put yourself in between trans people and the TERFS")

What is going on here? How is the narrative growing that trans people are a) at significant risk of physical harm from terfs whilst also b) being significantly weaker than "cis allies" so they need their protection? Why are so many people apparently so keen to do this - to prove their woke credentials? Because they are hanging onto the coat tails of an exciting new movement and want to remain part of the gang? Why are so many of them women, when surely if you were looking for bouncers and security guards to keep you safe, you would want big burly men? (Pesky biology meaning that they are stronger than terfs)

Is this a new phenomenon? Have straight women always been asked to sacrifice themselves to the cause for no reward? Or is this just the TRA equivalent of making the sandwiches and putting away the chairs at the end of the meeting?

Confused
OP posts:
NotTerfNorCis · 23/04/2018 13:16

Seems it was suggested by someone called mummybear701.

R0wantrees · 23/04/2018 13:18

Mumsnet users are not calling for a section 28 for transgender people, that is out and out horseshit and a total lie.

A number of people who are prominent in cross-party political positions are claiming this.

NotTerfNorCis · 23/04/2018 13:21

One person. There are hundreds of people here. All have different views. Not all posting in good faith. One view doesn't represent all. What about all the opposing views?

ErrolTheDragon · 23/04/2018 13:27

A number of people who are prominent in cross-party political positions are claiming this.
Maybe it would be good if you could pass on the info to MNHQ - their lawyers might need to know.

MissRosie666 · 23/04/2018 13:31

Hi just incase you were in any way interested in hearing from an actual trans ally rather than invent your own tenuous theories, I am a middle aged mother of two with completely zero interest in being 'woke'. Nobody asked me to be an ally. It's pretty unfeminist to imply that any woman who wants to stand up for trans people is too stupid/easily coerced/interested in the shallow trappings of 'woke'ness to come to an informed decision about where they stand for themselves don't you think? And also, I thought all allies were 'lefty dudebros' who don't need to worry about women's spaces? Now they are mostly women? Curious. I stand up for my trans brothers and sisters because I see the hostility they have to deal with on a daily basis. And when your friends are being ridiculed, pictures of them are being shared online and objectified and laughed at, comments are made day in day out about how they are wrong/deluded/disgusting to seek acceptance, you stand up for them, no? Is it so hard to fathom? If you take a peek outside your echo chamber you will see a great number of allies, male and female who have no motive other than that standing up for a highly misunderstood and maligned minority group is something we believe in. X

RedToothBrush · 23/04/2018 13:33

Seems it was suggested by someone called mummybear701.

Who said it sarcastically, and is pro-trans.

No one said, yes what a fantastic idea.

LastGirlOnTheLeft · 23/04/2018 13:39

So Rosie, if you are interested in looking after these people, why is the focus ALWAYS on protecting them from women who wish and do them NO HARM whatsoever and you do NOTHING about the male violence they are far more at threat from?

R0wantrees · 23/04/2018 14:22

ErrolTheDragon

The claim originates from EH's blog (now deleted) though still attached to many Twitter comments, including people from a number of political parties and influence.
The accusations of 'transphobia' / call for 'new section 28' are aimed at who though...
Mumsnet /Mumsnetters / women who post on FWR on Mumsnet/ specific individuals?

ErrolTheDragon · 23/04/2018 14:27

Yes, I know where the lie arose - but who is (presumably not realising its falsity) perpetuating it?

R0wantrees · 23/04/2018 14:30

put 'section 28' into Twitter. It is now widespread...

R0wantrees · 23/04/2018 14:37

very early on, the LibDem LGBT twitter account took a very strong position.

MadBadDaddy · 23/04/2018 14:40

MissRosie666 This site isn't anti-trans, it's just that trans-rights are way, way less important than women's safety, which is being defended, because it is under attack, and not just by shameful violent cowards in masks. Have a read of MN and see for yourself.

Next, tally up the actual bruises and physical threats on both sides.(tip: bruised egos don't count), before trying to say "there's nothing to worry about". There's no justification for violence, end of. Nothing else good happens until then.

chthulucense · 23/04/2018 19:38

Reading through this thread makes me doubt whether there's any sense in answering this question in good faith, but I will. Isn't intervening in harassment and oppression -whether verbal or physical, intentional or ignorant- precisely what allies do? Within intersectional feminism one takes account of one's positions of privilege (in my case, being cis, the privilege of not having to deal with having the validity of my existence and identity questioned day to day) and uses them to share the burden of those who don't have that privilege and do deal with that kind of shite on a daily basis. Also, just like I appreciate when menfolk intercept male misogyny, as a white able-bodied queer cis feminist I feel it my duty to take on transphobia and cissexism when and where I encounter it, and if at all possible shield my trans friends from it or at least align myself with them. Just like I do my best to take on racism, ableism and other forms of structural oppression.

dinosaursandtea · 23/04/2018 19:40

Thanks for the heads up! I’ll definitely be providing support to the trans community.

OlennasWimple · 23/04/2018 19:54

chthulucense - I asked the question in good faith, so I appreciate your thoughtful response.

I suppose one of the things I'm struggling to get my head around is the apparent power or privilege imbalance inherent in men asking women to take the flak for them. If two 6 foot transwomen are too scared to walk home at night in Bristol, having me beside them is bugger all use if someone decided to attack them, because they will both be stronger than me anyway (regardless of surgery or hormone treatment). And whilst I might arguably enjoy a privilege through not having to deal with gender dysphoria, as a women (even a white, straight, educated woman) I still have to deal with the patriarchy and other shit - so asking me to get involved in Twitter spats on someone else's behalf is liable to lead to me being called all sorts of misogynistic names (and possible to "die in a fire", hopes that I will get "raped with a broken bottle" and lots of other lovely phrases that get thrown around by TRAs)

To be clear, I'm not talking about stepping in when something unforeseen is happening: I have intervened on many occasions when I've seen bullying or harassment at work, on the bus, in the playground etc. But I've done that because I'm a decent person and was the best placed person at the time (sometimes by dint of being the only grown up, sometimes by dint of being the senior employee, sometimes by dint of being the only person prepared to speak up). Not because I've been told by activists that it's my job, my duty to do so and if I'm not prepared to be collateral damage then I obviously don't care about the cause

OP posts:
chthulucense · 23/04/2018 20:14

Nobody tells me what to do. I see it as my duty to combat transphobia and cissexism because these are attitudes that make the world a shittier, smaller, scarier place and actively harm people, among whom are many of my friends and queer family.

Also, trans women are women. Contemporary law, medicine and biology all recognise this. To imply otherwise is either incredibly ignorant or incredibly bigoted. There's really no excuse to be either.

OlennasWimple · 23/04/2018 20:22

What is cissexism please?

OP posts:
YetAnotherSpartacus · 23/04/2018 20:40

'Cis', whatever that is, is a 'privilege' ? Bollocks.

There is so much wrong here I don't know where to start.

Neither being embodied as female nor gendered as feminine are privileges under patriarchy.

MaterialReality · 23/04/2018 20:47

Also, trans women are women. Contemporary law, medicine and biology all recognise this. To imply otherwise is either incredibly ignorant or incredibly bigoted. There's really no excuse to be either.

Can you define 'woman' without using the word as part of its own definition, then? I'd like to know what you mean when you say they're women.

thebewilderness · 23/04/2018 20:49

Cissexism is women wanting to maintain sex segregated spaces for safety privacy and dignity instead of gendered spaces for the delusional beliefs of men who identify as women.
Cis is what transgender advocates call people who are not transgendered in order to other them. Same old male supremacist abuser tactics.

thebewilderness · 23/04/2018 20:51

1st rule of misogyny: Women are responsible for what men do.
2nd rule of misogyny: Women saying no to men is a hate crime.
3rd rule of misogyny: Women speaking for themselves are exclusionary and selfish.
4th rule of misogyny: Women's opinions are violence against men thus male violence against women is justified.

12th rule of misogyny: Women's ability to recognize male behavior patterns is misandry.

AssassinatedBeauty · 23/04/2018 20:55

I'm guessing from your previous posts that you're of the #nodebate school with regards to the belief that trans women are women, chthulucense? But I am wondering if you could summarise the biology aspect for me, that shows that trans women are biologically women, as distinguishable from men as natal women are? I've not yet found an explanation that makes sense to me.

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 23/04/2018 21:06

I was going to say i would call out transphobia in the same way i would call out racism, islamaphobia, homophobia, agism and sexism in RL

And then i read that if i don't believe that transwomen are women medically and biologically then im transphobic

Sooooo

Im a bit stuck now

Errrmmm...do I continue calling out what I believe is transphobia or can i not do that if someone else calls me transphobic

Its a bit confusing

RedToothBrush · 23/04/2018 21:06

Â¥Also, trans women are women. Contemporary law, medicine and biology all recognise this.

Do they?

Law is not always right, just or fair. That's why the law is a fluid thing that changes and is constantly revised over the passage if time. This can go backwards and forwards in terms of rights for various groups. The idea that we are always progressing towards freedom and equality as we somehow become 'more civilised' is a dangerous fallacy to believe in as it leaves you vulnerable to complacency.

Medicine is certainly not in agreement here. Many leading figures in trans medicine have subsequently been attacked and vilified for their professional opinions to the point that people are afraid to voice a dissenting opinion out of fear for their careers. Or worse they have been actually criminalised. This is not in any way progressive. Medicine relies of medics being free to argue and question. When politics are more important than evidence, you are in dangerous territory. Its true of all areas of medicine not simply trans health, so is certainly not a controversial thing to point out that professionals are being hindered by the political climate. This may well not be in the best interests of trans people, and I find this deeply disturbing. Normal standards and ethics have suddenly been displaced.

Medicine is therefore still a massive area of contention and even then its a leap to go from medicine to saying this is biological fact.

My sibling under went a lot of testing. They could find not biological difference between him and any other man. Not one thing.

Psychological difference perhaps you could argue in their case, in terms of medically recognised. But in terms of biology and how they will be treated for non-trans related health issues, everything the same as a man. Its simple things like bone structure that are different.

To say this stuff is bigotted is nonsense and just proves the point. This is a political concept which goes hand in hand with the terminology. It is a belief.

If you do not share those beliefs you might be called a bigot. It does not necessarily mean you are because the law might be problematic and have unintended consequences which are harmful (not just to women, but also trans people themselves), it does not mean their is medical consensus, if the consensus is purely a result of a climate of fear and it doesn't change biology ultimately, just the political use of terms relating to biology.

I personally wish you could change biology because it would make life a lot easier and save a lot of pain. The very concept of being trans is an acknowledgement of being different biologically. Otherwise what are you 'transsing' from?

All your post is about is trying to call people a name to silence them for political reasons.

I love my sibling very much. I am fearful for the future. I don't expect them to conform to gender roles. I accept them as trans. I don't want them to be discriminated against. At the same time I want them to be able to access the best medical assistance there is and I don't believe that in every situation they are the most vulnerable merely by being trans. I think there are many situations where they have much more privilege than someone else and for that reason they should give way to the greater needs of that person. This blanket nonsense of always saying trans people are the most vulnerable is ignorant and dangerous as it places whoever is more vulnerable at risk. I find trans ideology far too black and white in this respect. I think people who hold the view that being trans makes you most vulnerable very naive of the realty of the world.

Indeed on a practical level I find a lot of calls for equality in all areas do much to do the opposite and are actually unhelpful to trans people themselves. Women's shelters are a prime example. They are so under funded presently women (with children) are routinely being turned away especially if they have complex needs which are difficult to cope with. In other cases women are being sent up to 600 miles away to find a place. In this context instead of insisting trans women have access to all shelters, which might distress women and children, who quite frankly aren't a position to deal with political correctness because of their emotional state, it would be far better to establish a few soecialist shelters for transwomen which are better placed to serve the specific and different needs of the community. Insistence to use women's shelters actually isn't in anyone's interests. Apart from those seeking to abuse the system. The idea that every shelter has the capacity and ability to deal with such a wide range of issues demonstrate a lack of understanding of what these shelters are up against in the real world. The pie eyed idealism being thrown into the mix just highlights privilege of those who know nothing about the reality. As it is womens shelters which are specialist have been forced to close already because of funding. Support for the ground level from trans activists and their allies to build on whats already there rather than putting it under further pressure, wouldn't go amiss.

Call me every name under the sun you like. Say that you are looking out for trans people more than everyone else because you are a good little ally. Its rot.

Ideology is nice and makes you feel warm inside. But it can blind you to how it all works in practice.

Reality on the other hand is a bit of a shitter and nice ideas don't always translate in practice. Reality doesn't really care if its called bigoted sadly.

Everything you say is simply political and born of the current moment in time, rather than being something solid. And I will merely call it as such. Not because I have a beef with trans people, but because the politics of TRAs are so blinkered to their own detriment in many cases.

I do not wish for what I fear will happen.

thebewilderness · 23/04/2018 21:13

Also, trans women are women. Contemporary law, medicine and biology all recognise this.

No they do not, which is why I get a vaginal smear and not a prostate exam.
Stop embarrassing yourself with these zombie lies.

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