Transing children

[Pratchet]

Brace doctor breaks cover and warns of the dangers

Can we talk about ASD a bit more? As it is so relevant. For millennia people believed that male and female brains and personalities were fundamentally different and there was a massive power imbalance between men and women that was supported by this belief. In the twentieth century, for the first time, people began to apply scientific methods to look at gender. What they found was that gender is socially constructed i.e. the process of developing a gender identity has to do with social interaction; it is a combination of social 'stereotypes' and 'rules,' and individuals who are mostly adept at picking up on those social cues, who have a lot to lose by breaking them and therefore they conform to their assigned gender. Gender identity in most cases was found to be pretty fixed very early on in life, having been created through social interaction from babyhood. These theories become very well established. Around a similar time ASD is discovered, which is a genetic condition characterised by a triad of impairments, two of which relate to specific differences in the way the brain responds to social cues. Around a similar time, homosexuality is found by psychologists to be impervious to social conditioning. While all of this is still sinking in with society at large and much of the thinking of the preceding millennia is still very strongly held, psychologists turn their attention to gender identity disorders. They find that there is a very high coincidence of ASD and GID. There is also a very high coincidence of homosexuality and GID. They already know, scientifically, that gender is communicated to small children socially and they know that gay people have less to lose from withstanding gender pressures because they have less to gain from the traditional patriarchal structures that gender reinforces. And they conclude that................ we are, after all, born with male or female brains, sometimes in the wrong bodies. Gender is innate after all. @theskyisgrey can you see the problem here? They have reverted to the millennia-old way of thinking when there is an alternative, far more obvious conclusion. That GID is caused by autism and/or homosexuality. And that in both cases it is society that needs to change drastically to ensure those individuals can live their lives as they want and need to without discrimination and without altering their bodies.

I like the idea of a Bath Spar University.

Also, girls are very let down by ASD diagnostic processes and often don't get diagnosed until adulthood. Many psychologists are beginning to think that ASD is as common in girls as it is in boys (which would stand to sense if female and male brains are not really very different) and yet only 1 girl is diagnosed for every 2 boys. A lot of the time no one picks up on it at all while the girl is young and therefore they don't get the necessary support. "Coincidentally" a much larger proportion of girls are having their gender identities transitioned in their teens than boys.

Ratherbehome
I don't think the same number of adults are now realising they are transgender (proportionate to the ones who would have been missed out due to lack of awareness)?
This is where the greater awareness theory falls down. Currently far more girls than boys are being referred for gender identity issues. If this was just due to greater awareness, there would be a similar enormous number of adult women identifying as trans. Instead of that, we just hear reports of women who are glad that this ideology wasn't around in their youth.

I completely agree with your post SarahCarer. The transgender kids I have come across through work all appear to be either gay or on the autistic spectrum or both. It's such a tragedy that they may very well end up taking damaging drugs and suffering unnecessary operations, when in the past they would probably have come to terms with themselves and found their own special beauty and worth in time.

Wanderabout - exactly. This idea that medical and Psychiatrist professionals are too terrified to suggest otherwise is complete bollocks and being used (with little evidence) to support a political agenda suggesting a very small amount of people are changing entire medical/Psychiatric systems out of fear of being considered transphobic.

They're not. GI clinics are by and large not treated with a great deal of respect by their wider Psychiatric colleagues and are frequently complained about and 'diagnoses' challenged.

I've done so myself. As have my colleagues.

But being transgender is not considered to be a mental illness in and of itself - so, you can express your view that the person isn't transgender but expressing another aspect of a neurodevelopmental disorder like Autism or a mental (and possibly neurodevelopmental disorder) like a personality disorder with freedom. But it would be extremely rare that your opinion would overide the opinion of the individual themselves when their view that they are transgender is not considered to be a mental illness. In many ways that is how it should be, that the persons wants should not be ignored and overriden by a representative of the state (in the not too distant past this led to numerous human rights abuses).

That doesn't mean professionals are not openly talking about it, or publically expressing their views. They are.

The NMC, GMC and BPS all state that professionals are in breach of their professional responsibilities and ethics if they support actions or treatments which they don't feel are in the best interests of the people they are working with.

I have refused to refer people to GI clinics as I did not feel they were transgender. When asked to provide a professional opinion, I have given one.

Their GP or another service has referred them to a GI clinic and the person has been accepted for treatment.

At no point have I been criticised for not making that referral. Nor for my views.

In my local adult ASD service which has had to form a transgender group due to demand; being transgender is never dismissed as nonsense but it IS discussed in the context of why some people with ASD are more likely to perceive themselves as trans.

Yes the fact that the increase in numbers of people coming out as transed are weighted heavily towards girls when it's children and heavily towards men when it's middle aged people suggests that there is a huge amount of socialisation at play.

I have never heard of a middle aged woman suddenly coming out as trans but I know a good few men who have

ChinnyReckon1 "But it would be extremely rare that your opinion would overide the opinion of the individual themselves when their view that they are transgender is not considered to be a mental illness. In many ways that is how it should be, that the persons wants should not be ignored and overriden by a representative of the state (in the not too distant past this led to numerous human rights abuses)".

I think you are referring to society's response to homosexuality there are you? The difference is that homosexuality is an innate condition of the human brain whereas gender identity is not. Gender is socially constructed and therefore has a social explanation and gender disphoria has a social solution. My dd has presented with ASD and strong signs of GID (e.g. saying "I am not a girl" since around 3 years old and major fear of turning into a woman). She decided she must be trans after hearing another person's trans narrative. Due to her ASD her thinking patterns are very rigid. If I had supported her in that and accepted her narrative she would definitely have been on the trans journey to medically assisted self mutilation by now. If I had tried to insist that she is confused and that she really is a girl and she will 'feel' feminine when she is older she would definitely have been on the trans journey by now. But I understand gender and her gender resisting super power that lies within her autism. I have been able to carefully explain the whole thing to her and address her enormous fears about puberty that are associated with the changes in her body rather than her current body. She is now happily GNC and her appearance of GID is, at least for now, fully resolved. As a medical professional you would not have seen the conversations that have informed your patients' identities.

SarahCarer you were very fortunate and insightful in helping your DD. My DD identifies as male, told us aged 18. Only after that did the penny drop that she is autistic. She now has a formal diagnosis of ASD. So all her difficulties - rigid thinking, not fitting in, social anxieties, gender non-conformity - have combined themselves in this very powerful explanation (in her head) that she has a male brain in a female body.

Having had absolutely no inkling that this would have crossed her mind, we were completely blindsided. So now we are letting things run their course, and hoping that at least one professional in a gender clinic will explore the possibility that there is nothing wrong with her body that needs fixing.

This is where the greater awareness theory falls down. Currently far more girls than boys are being referred for gender identity issues.

Yes there are more natal females being referred at the moment. Do you not think (Chief child transer) Polly is very well aware of that? She discusses it at length. And she admits she doesn't have all the answers. She seems very cognisant of the complexity and sensitivity of the issue. She does not deny a social component.
tavistockandportman.nhs.uk/about-us/news/stories/gender-identity-development-service-on-bbc-radio-4s-womans-hour/

As she says it's likely to be multifactorial. Historically there have always been more tomboys than overtly gnc boys. (I know you know this).Tomboys that range from wanting to cut hair and wear boys clothes through to insisting on male name. It's more acceptable and more common so it's not surprising there are more natal female presentations at the clinic. Presumably those that are not really true gender dys get filtered out.

OrchidInTheSun I have never heard of a middle aged woman suddenly coming out as trans but I know a good few men who have

Oh really? Depends what you mean by 'suddenly' I guess. There are quite a few but the media doesn't seem as interested. They are interesting to listen to.

people.com/bodies/transgender-father-and-daughter-transition/

cringe music alert in English here (ok he's not middle aged but he's interesting).

Sorry if that's links overload.
No doubt you will think trans propaganda.

I feel for you and your dd Starkstaring. I was just extremely fortunate in finding the Mumsnet feminists at just the right time for my dd. Although I had a bit of a torrid time initially the intelligence of the posters shone through and I kept reading and thinking until I could see a way through for us. PM me if there is anything I can help with.

@Supermatchgame I have put forward an alternative possibility above for why there are currently so many girls transitioning.... what are your thoughts?

(Chief child transer)

I'm not sure that's the correct job title.

I'm not sure that's the correct job title.
You're right. Bad choice of words. Inappropriate humour. It's a coping mechanism.

Super- glad to see someone with the understanding of the training, pain and complexity that goes into this work posting. (Maybe you don’t but sounds like you do)
And if you do you will also agree that this is not thought of as straightforward by anyone working clinically!

SupermatchGame
There are quite a few but the media doesn't seem as interested.
What do the statistics say?

Regarding adult women transitioning, I've heard of at least two stories where the mother transitioned alongside one of her children. In fact in this case, the entire family (mum, dad, two kids) all transitioned! This is the other case.

SarahCarer Well glad you've got through the rough. Yes the situation you highlight is one possibility and the links with GID and ASD are very well recognised. There are countless references as I'm sure you know www.researchgate.net/publication/273639503_Brief_Report_Autistic_Features_in_Children_and_Adolescents_with_Gender_Dysphoria

I don't think that explains all gd in children and I don't think it accounts for all of the increase either. Though clearly there is a connection sometimes.

You say sexuality is entirely biological and gender identity is entirely socially constructed. I don't believe that. Most mental health professionals don't either. I'm not saying blue brain pink brain, but I do think gender identity is a mixture of genetics, biology, biochemistry, environment, society and culture. The human brain is sex-hormone sensitive, both during development and as an adult. There are some differences between average male and average female brains in terms of structures. Sexual behaviour is a 'behaviour' and that can be determined by brain physiology so why would we think that no other behaviour is either?

Sorry I don't believe there is no connection at all between gender, gender identity and sexuality. I think there is. Not a totally rigid, inflexible and always predictable one. It is within the context of the great and fabulous diversity of human experience but nevertheless there is some connection.

I think we know what the statistics say OldCrone. Actually do we?
Someone said they hadn't heard of any middle aged (40+) m2f or late transmasculine transitioners. I just provided some examples. I'm not trying to argue every single point on the forum.

Whatever you believe about gender identity, humans can't change sex

And what a lot of videos you have to shore up your stance. How about numbers?

They can legally Orchid. Ta daa.
And to some extent biochemically.

And if I'd linked one video you would have said: only one - pah!

Round in circles.

Have they found any genetic component to trans-racial or trans-abled or are those still considered mental disorders, and if so, why?

I think one of the biggest issues is that now trans encompasses people who don't have sex dysphoria. Is that playing into the stats? Is it being picked up by HCPs?

Dr. Cretella, President of the American College of Pediatricians also has serious misgivings about the way children are being medicalised; yes she's got a religious interest but she's been very vocal about the science vs moral responsibilities of doctors.

Although she does blame feminism in the 70s for introducing 'gender' when they meant 'sex', which is a very clumsy way of explaining it.

They can legally Orchid. Ta daa.

Nope. The law recognises their difference from actual women in the existence of exemptions to the Equality Act, and to the GRA.