Is it possible to have a discussion about coming up with a definition of transphobia that....

[BertrandRussell]

.....doesn't get deleted? Because we can't talk about the actual issue without defined terms. Here's what I think.

1. It is transphobic to be gratuitously offensive- to misgender or deadname.
2. It is transphobic to ascribe negative characteristics to transpeople in general.
3. it is transphobic to deny goods or services to people on the basis of their identity alone- although as with sex discrimination there will be specific exceptions here.
4. It is transphobic to incite hatred or violence against transpeople.
5. It is transphobic to name call, belittle or mock transpeople because of their identity.

That seems quite a reasonable definition

As a trans woman I don't tend to consider this word to stand for anything meaningful.

It has been so overused in trivial situations that it has lost all value even in cases where it might be true.

That's what happens when you over react to relatively minor things.

Like the trans boy who cried wolf when a mouse walked by, so that when the wolf does come to get you people shrug and say - not you again.

I would just suggest asking yourself, if someone said that to me about me then how would I react?

If you just would feel puzzled or mildly aggrieved but that mistakes and misunderstandings or different views on things can happen.

Then it is not transphobia so move on.

There is way too much over reacting around this word and it is entirely counter productive.

It only makes those who might agree that some comments are unreasonable eventually think otherwise.

They might decide - well, if we have to watch every little thing we say or we too will be guilty of this without intent - then perhaps the one I thought was transphobic when I saw it from someone else yesterday really wasn't.

Just stop calling everything transphobia.

Much of it is no more than a different opinion from the one you hold.
If it hurts then look to yourself and ask why. You have no right to presume everybody believes everything you say or supports everything you do.

After all, by telling this person they are wrong right now that is pretty much what you are doing to them.

In the English language we call that honest disagreement.

And most of the time it would really help trans people to accept that, shrug and get on with their day.

to misgender or deadname

I don't know. When IW was in CBB she said 'When I was a man'. Wouldn't that make her transphobic under the above definition?

Jayceedove, I agree wholeheartedly with your post. It's just that constantly being accused of being beyond the pale gets a bit disorientating after a while. You start to worry there might be something in it. It's nice to see an actual definition written down so you can think 'yep, I don't do that'.

I got likened to a member of he Ku Klux Klan on here earlier this week .

and now I might be about to be offensive.

Regarding misgendering in point 1 BertrandRussell. I would say that it should be perfectly acceptable to point out the sex of transwomen or transmen as a group.

In certain circumstances it is also relevant to point out the sex of an individual trans person (for example in the Autumn when a transwomen proposed to administer a smear test).

It should also be legal to use the pronouns of your choice, but in the knowledge that you're being bloody rude if you choose not to use someone's preferred pronouns if they're making a concerted effort to pass.

People who feel very smart because they like to use deadnames baffle me. We're against gender stereotyping right? If a man wants to call himself Janice you are literally objecting because he's not complying with gender stereotypes. Don't get it.

I’d agree with that except for the first point. If someone name changes but their previous identity or actual sex is relevant, I don’t think it’s transphobic to call them he (or she), or mention that they are also/ were previously called a different name.

For people who change their gender daily, I think I just can’t be arsed to care which name or pronoun would be offensive today.

yeah, I mean I think trabs people need to accept that their previous identities aren't and shouldn't be a secret. I just think that if someone asks you to call them Bob, you call them Bob.

1. No
2. Possibly
3. Yes
4. Yes
5. No

yes I think this whole issue of dead naming needs teasing out.... we can't just say it is okay to deadname people like Caitlyn Jenner who has no issue with it... but not to do so with other people....

Surely the whole concept is flawed? Everyone has a history - some of which they like and some they don't - Surely people cannot pretend they didn't exist in their previous persona and cannot detach from this personal history and what they did before transition?

No to “misgendering”. I don’t think people should be compelled to lie. Using preferred pronouns and going along with the polite lie that we can’t tell trans people’s real sex is a courtesy, not a right.

I think it's a very hard thing to explain explicitly because of a lack of definition around what Trans encapsulates, the fact that context is very important and ultimately it is subjective.

Ultimately I agree broadly with the list you've posted but I can think of situations where I'd argue they don't apply.

Dead naming is a good example. I don't do it but I worry when reporting a crime for example, that never disclosing someones prior identity and name has the potential to obstruct justice. I'd feel this regardless of the rationale behind the name change.

Equally wrt characteristics, there are some people who identify as trans whose primary motivation is fetishistic (and are open about this). Talking about this can be perceived as a slur by people who id as Trans for other reasons. I understand that. However that's part of the issue of the trans umbrella being so inclusive rather than a reason not to discuss this.

It's a minefield that's for sure and I do my very best not to offend, it's certainly never my intent, but as JC herself has pointed out as a Trans Woman, the cries of transphobia are levelled so frequently and spuriously I honestly don't think we could come up with a definition here that would appease TRA's and Allies as unless you're with them 100% you're anti :-( and that's polarising and unhelpful.

re deadnaming. If I were talking about Caitlyn Jenner (which I try not to because they're a tiresome waste of space), I would refer to them as Caitlyn Jenner (because that's their name).

However I would be fine with referring to Caitlyn Jenner's life while they were called Bruce Jenner, and discussing the privilege they experienced as a rich white man, which will still be influencing their beliefs and behaviour.

If misgendering becomes transphobic, how would a woman report a man in a female sex segregated area without calling him a man if he identified as a woman?

You can't know people's preferred pronouns if they are strangers so this cannot be transphobic.

Even if it's a man in a dress he may still identify as a man. How are we to know?

true Fairenuff, I would be misgendering Grayson Perry if I saw him in a dress and called him 'Madam'.

what a fucking mess.

Even the law says transphobia is in the eye of the beholder. As are all the other isms and phobias.

Any criminal offence which is perceived by the victim or any other person, to be motivated by hostility or prejudice, based on a person's disability or perceived disability; race or perceived race; or religion or perceived religion; or sexual orientation or perceived sexual orientation or transgender identity or perceived transgender identity.

If the law doesn't consider an objective definition - on which any workable law should surely be based, but that's another story entirely - necessary, why should anyone else?

The de facto definition of transphobia is that it's whatever a trans person says it is. And the law agrees. The law agrees that if A N Other transactivist perceives a post on Mumsnet to be transphobic, then it is transphobic.

If only the law also included sexism or misogyny as a hate crime, we could just play hate crime poker and raise each other's shouts of TRANSPHOBIA! with MISOGYNY! until we'd broken each other's banks.

The whole debate has been overtaken by the social constructionist idea that individual perception trumps objective reality. And so it's all entirely pointless. Transphobia, as a term, means everything and nothing. Because we are so far through the looking glass that objective definitions of anything no longer exist.

I think CJ is an interesting example.

Which is a fair summary of her achievement?

The quotes are fake (mine) but copy the different styles of reporting I've seen.

"Caitlyn Jenner has many claims to fame, one of which being when she won an Olympic Gold at the Decathlon, the only legally recognised woman to do so"

Or

"Caitlyn Jenner is a former Olympic Athlete, amongst whose achievements was wining a gold medal in the men's decathlon whilst competing as Bruce Jenner"

CJ has stated she doesn't object to the latter but many people do in her behalf.

NotTG so ascribing negative characteristics to trans people in general is only ‘possibly’ transphobic? Why is it okay to do it for trans people but for no other minorities?

Also misgendering is not really so much talking about someone’s former identity, it’s things like insisting on calling Lily Madigan Liam and things like that.

Why would Caitlyn Jenner want to deny those things she did as Bruce anyway?

That olympic gold medal was earned as a man competing against other men. Something to be very proud of.
Denying Bruce's existed would also be incredibly disrespectful to the kids who knew/know her as 'Dad'

The word transphobic is so overused now it becomes background noise. Same with bigot.

A definite 'no' to misgendering as being defined as transphobic. Absolutely no. Whilst many of us may be inclined to use pronouns as requested it's not 'transphobic' to find that problematic when trying to challenge the idea that gender is how 'women' and 'men' are defined and/or that people can change sex. I'm sure many people decide they will use pronouns socially but not in other situations where clarity about sex really does matter.

I'd like to know officially that saying "you can't change sex" is not deemed transphobic ever because it is actually a fact and not a deliberate attempt to hurt trans people.

If people are so very sensitive that they can't face reality don't make it my problem.

Trans is an umbrella term according t Stonewall and other transgender advocacy orgs. Therefore defining transphobia is impossible.
The laws only consider people in the transgender protected category who are at some point on the path to gender reassignment.

Feminism chat is supposed to be about women and girls isn't it?
Anyone who thinks that it is 'phobic' to misgender someone have a look at this. You will never, ever get it right.
Stop trying to fashion a rod to beat yourself with.
Link should be to Magdelen Berns twitter. If it doesn't work - go and have a look.
twitter.com/twitter/statuses/987703549768491008

The claim has been made on twitter, repeatedly, that all we do here is talk about trans. Some people have come to the Feminist and women's rights section of MN to make it so.