How would you describe your GC views?

[facelessvongorgeous]

I'm interested in the scope and range of views on here and to solidify some of my thoughts I'd be interested in hearing in people's personal beliefs, lines in the sand, how you talk about trans people in day to day discussion.

For example, I feel the vast majority of us would like to keep sex segregated spaces but the definition of that differs slightly. In my utopia there would be no need to transition as gender would not exist, however we're past that now. Therefore I'd be accepting of transwomen with a GRC, but how would that be proved? And this is where my centrist/pragmatism collides with my desire for only sex as a descriptor.

Likewise I will use preferred pronouns until that person has given me cause not to, and will use transwomen rather than TIM. I recognise this is conceding on my firmly held beliefs but I don't feel at this point any backtracking can be done.

I also don't necessarily believe the big pharma side of things as haven't personally seen this enact with trans people I know, who struggle with waiting times. Not to say it isn't true but it's not my experience.

I'd love to hear more about where others lie in the spectrum and how they consolidate idealism with pragmatism, if only to help me clear the fog!

This is the Feminist and women's rights section of Mumsnet.
I understand that many people have claimed that we are talking about trans rights here but we are not.
We are discussing the effect that laws currently in place and an amendment under consideration will have on women and girls.

Men have claimed for years that women's rights are anti men and now they are claiming women's rights are anti trans. As though this is a zero sum game we are playing with out lives.
Male violence is the greatest human rights crisis the world has ever known.

BB So that’s gender, and that’s why I hate it, and all the lies and obfuscation around it. It’s a stupid, uncomfortable shoe that everyone would do better to throw in the bin, but which has instead become the thing that I am forced to wear if I am to have words to talk about my sex. It has become the thing I always hated that I am ordered to share with people with whom I have nothing in common. It hurts, I want my foot out of it, I can run better without it.

I want to be barefoot. The way I was born.

Me too!

And, to top it all off, they say they look better wearing the the shoe than you do.

I start from the position that sex is a clearly definable, material reality, while gender is less clearly definable.

I understand that gender dysphoria is very likely an innate biological condition, that is very distressing for those who have it.

In contrast, I believe that the majority of gender characteristics are socially constructed.

I find myself wondering if people with gender dysphoria would be as distressed by their condition, or feel the need to transition, if gender was a more fluid and nobody cared how you present yourself. However, people’s description of the strength of compulsion to remove physical sex characteristics suggest that, for those with dysphoria, the condition is deeper than rejection of social conditioning. Such a deep psychological need to remove functioning body parts is, by most definitions, a pathological condition. Until now, the best way found to treat that pathology and improve the quality of life for people with dysphoria is to change their bodies to appear more like the opposite sex.

The thought of a child going through this type of treatment fills me with horror, especially given the large proportion of those who present as trans who don’t go on to physically transition. That sort of treatment should be absolutely a last resort, reserved for adults. That said, I sympathise with parents who truly believe their child is likely to commit suicide if they are not treated. These families need support, but not from ideologues who don't care if they become collateral damage.

I don’t think there is any justification for people without gender dysphoria to be able to ‘id as trans’. That amounts to appropriating the experience of transsexual people and is completely inappropriate. If you don’t have gender dysphoria, why would you be any different to anyone else who rejects socially constructed gender stereotypes? You aren’t, and you have no reason to claim special protection under the law.

The reason my statement of my position on gender criticism focuses heavily on trans experiences is because people with gender dysphoria are being used as a trojan horse for men to invade women’s spaces.

Certain spaces are separated by sex as a safety measure for women, because of male violence. This is not a perfect system and operates on trust and social convention.

The introduction of self-ID is particularly threatening because it erodes the trust and social convention. So, it becomes conventional to see people of the opposite sex in single sex spaces and socially unacceptable to challenge it. For example, where I ask for a female nurse to take a smear test, and a transwoman nurse arrives. In that situation, I am put in the position of either having the test in a situation in which I have complied with my boundaries being breached, complaining and being accused of bigotry, or not having the smear test, none of which are acceptable.

My biggest issue with the whole replacement of ‘sex’ with ‘gender’ is the totalitarian nature of how it is being implemented. We are being told that the words we use to define ourselves does not mean what we understand them to mean. That we must use them to mean something else entirely or face social approbation. We are being told that subjective reality is less important than completely undefinable or testable feelings and that we must agree that this is the case or we are bigots. That is totalitarianism and I will not comply with it.

(Christ, that was long! You did ask...)

In my utopia there would be no need to transition as gender would not exist

I think thats everyones ideal universe, echoed by the trans people I know in RL, both male to female. Or at least there would be no need to for hormones or blockers and surgery to an apparently healthy body. Sadly its not the case, and trans people alone will not change this.

Shaped by women. Taught by women. Full awareness of what women have taught me.

@jeanhatchet I think we are experiencing a blip. The move to social media has removed the 'old' ways 'feminism' was passed on. I think it's a one off divide. We won't let it happen again.

That's great. You are entitled to set your boundaries. In shared female spaces how do your personal boundaries as regards who is an excluded male and who is an included male work? Do we hold a vote? What do we do for those women who will not bear any male? Do they miss out for being 'transphobes' or are their boundaries respected with sex segregated spaces?

I don't believe "gender" even exists as a thing.
Sex, yes - and I don't want sex segregated spaces for women and girls to be compromised in any way whatsoever. Surely that's a no brainer?

Betty - it was and it will be again. We are not pushovers. They did this underground for years with money buying court cases because they know we aren't pushovers. We are on it now, we will keep sex based rights.

I have some very clear lines,

e.g. it's transwoman not trans woman, for that same reason that it's pineapple not pine apple.

In people I don't know i will use the correct (not preferred) pronoun. This has become very important because using the wrong pronoun clouds the issue. E.g. "She is a woman just like any other and deserves the right to use womens spaces" well that sounds entirely reasonable doesn't it? On the other hand "He is a woman like any other" is obviously absurd and no reasonable person would indulge that.

In people that I know I will make concessions of preferred pronouns to their face or in common friends, just like if they announced they wanted to be called by a nickname.

I have total sympathy for the transwomen i know. They've been sold a lie. They were told "take this pill and you'll be a real woman, get fake boobs and you'll be a real woman, cut your dick off and you'll be a real woman", and at the end of it so be told "Sorry but you're still 100% a man, there was never any chance of being a woman, also you can't go back to being a regular man, all that pain was for nothing and good luck having an orgasm ever again" would be absolutely devastating. I would straight up kill myself if I found myself in that situation. But unfortunately it IS the truth, and continuing to lie to them might save their feelings in the short term but ultimately it's leading more people down that path on false hopes.

Men are male, women are female, those thing have definitions and basis in reality and we can't protect people from reality forever.

Gender identity is a religious viewpoint, like a soul. It's fine to believe in it if it gives you comfort and helps you understand your place in the world but you do not have the right to demand that other people play along with your belief.

A man can believe he is a woman, absolutely. That is his right and I don't see a problem with that. His friends can call him a woman, absolutely, no problem with that. The problem is when we as society at large are asked to go along with a belief that flies in the face of actual reality.

A man can alter his body to appear more like a female, but he isn't and never will be female.