What percentage of feminists are on board with GRA

[Childrenofthestones]

Genuine question and I am not trying to be a goady fucker.
I have no data to back this up but from my observations the majority of the left and outside of these boards and awful lot of feminists too are fine with transgender rights and GRA.
Mumsnet was the only place I went to read feminist forums. I was surprised when I read other stuff in the media.
What proportion of self declaring feminists in the UK do you think are of the general mindset here, as opposed to the mindset of the Labour party the Guardian and from what I've seen an awful lot of young feminists on University campuses?

I don't believe feminism is compatible with the GRA. The root of women's oppression is our biology. If men can be women, then you cannot fight that oppression

All the feminists i know of my age group (40s) think it's nonsense TBH. They are of the believers in biology persuasion. They don't think it's helpful to pretend to be something that you are not. I'd say that's also the case with the men of that age group I know. They look at the Transactivists with bewilderment.

So those women who say they're feminists but stand outside women's meetings shouting at women aren't feminists. And the majority of the left is deeply misogynistic.

Well my aunt, a feisty old school lesbian thinks I’m utterly ridiculous. She thinks I’m transphobic, I am concerned about anybody self declaring for any old predatory purpose.

I saw something on facebook the other interviewing young women about feminism and one argued that it was called "feminism" because it was about ensuring that "feminine" traits had equal status! It was a real lightbulb moment for me - i see now why they think us oldies are exclusionary, BUT how to explain to them what feminism is really about?!

I think a lot of vagina exclusionary feminists are on board with it, lots.

Until someone conducts a survey with a large enough representative sample, your question is difficult to answer.

Also, people’s views, feminist or not, are not always fully informed ones.

I expect many people have formed views based on partial information and those views could change if they were more fully informed.

This is why we need more discussion and more debate, along with people being willing to think critically about everything they hear.

fine with transgender rights and GRA

Your daily reminder that objecting to the proposed changes to the GRA is not the same as being opposed to 'transgender rights'.

Well my aunt, a feisty old school lesbian thinks I’m utterly ridiculous. She thinks I’m transphobic

Does she understand that if the TRAs get their way, then she will be a transphobe for refusing to have sex with a self identified transwoman's "lady penis"?

I alternate between feeling furious and depressed that decades of feminism has brought us to this. I also feel desperately sorry for intersex persons - who are being dragged into an argument they want no part of - and transsexual persons - who are derided for getting on with their lives and pointing out that the current laws actually serve to protect people with gender dysphoria! But I'm just a natal woman, what do I know?

You’re asking the wrong question and also starting from a flawed assumption.

The flawed assumption is that the terms of the debate are well understood and that current acceptance of the proposed legislation is informed acceptance. The majority of people do not realise how wide the trans umbrella has become or that this group includes transwomen who retain their male genitalia and/or have varying levels of modification/medical treatment. They also don’t understand or have not considered the wider implications of enacting this legislation.

You are asking what % of feminists are on board. That’s not really important. Some feminists with a more in-depth understanding of feminist theory and a track record of critical analysis are sounding the alarm. It doesn’t really matter if they are small in number, as no doubt the early climate scientists were. It doesn’t undermine the rigor of their analysis or the importance of the concerns they are raising.

The test is, once we are able to have a full and frank discussion about this which takes into account competing POV, whether society at large agrees the proposed legislation is proportionate or fair in balancing the needs of woman and girls,children, vulnerable adults and trans individuals.

Interestingly when I talk about this with people outside the twitter/SJW bubble, they get it. None of the people I’ve spoken to would describe themselves as feminists.

I think you’d need to ask a series of specific questions rather than a general question. For example:

• do you believe a person with a penis could be a woman?
• do you believe if a girl likes trucks or dinasaurs that might be an indication she is really a boy?
• can a penis be a female sex organ?

Etc

I'd say all of the women I know in "the real world" - as in, working/paying rent or mortgage, have a life beyond Twitter and particularly parents - don't agree with the TRA stuff beyond "Well yeah of course everyone deserves respect", but because they don't spend much time focusing on feminist issues, they don't always realise the extent of the issue and they think it's idiots being idiots on Twitter.

If you're linking being a Labour leftie and accepting self id, you might want to read a bit further on here. There have been a lot of posts about leaving the Labour party, supporting Jennifer James, feeling politically homeless etc.

I don't think the majority of women/feminist even know the GRA exists. I don't believe that the majority of women believe that a man can become female through surgery, taking drugs or just saying that they are.

But that just my experience with the women I know.

Well yeah I'm thinking of leaving labour. I can't face the thought of bringing up my stance on this issue at theach branch meeting though as I think I'd be accused of hate speech.

The flawed assumption is that the terms of the debate are well understood and that current acceptance of the proposed legislation is informed acceptance.

Exactly. I haven't spoken to ONE person in real life who, once they understand the trans umbrella definition of trans, thinks GRA reform should happen. Not a single one. None. Zilch. Nada.

And yes, I'm also still thinking about leaving Labour (though I was heartened by the Labour woman at the Bristol meeting last night saying that they're planning their pushback).

I think most people don't spend a lot of time thinking about this issue. And even if they did, you'd still get a range of opinions from all sides.

The Wings Over Scotland blog did properly professional polling on this:

But our poll found that it’s not just feminists who are unhappy about it. Scots opposed the proposals by a margin of more than 3:1, and just as with support for OBFA, the opposition to self-declaration went right across the board.

Excluding the 24% Don’t Knows, men and women were both against the move by a crushing margin of 54 points (23% to 77%). Young people were the least anti but still 28 points against (36-64), with the middle-aged group opposed by 52 points (24-76) and the elderly by a gargantuan 74 points (13-87).

More survey refinements at

wingsoverscotland.com/the-law-that-nobody-wants/

Am I going to have to start reading Wings?!

Am I going to have to start reading Wings?!

LOL! He's not the most conciliatory of people, is he? But he's the only one to have done reliable polling using non-nudge/framed questions. And according to his results, there is not a single demographic supporting self-ID. However you divide up the population, nobody wants it.

In my experience, most feminists don't believe that men can become women and vice versa. Quite apart from a feminist view, pretty much everyone on earth knows that men can't become women and vice versa and are absolutely horrified at what's happening.

In fact, it seems to be only a certain kind of lefty dudebro and liberal feminists who do think that men can become women. Lefty men because they coulnd't give a fuck what happens to women as long as they don't have to think about it and, I assume, libfems because they want to be seen as nice and not like those awful hairy lesbian actual feminist tropes that only really exist in their heads.

Judging it on internet fora and social media, it is going to appear biased - because a large chunk of them will delete any critical comments.

boatyardblues put it better than I could.
Generally, people support self ID because they want to be nice and don't understand the implications. People believe that self ID means there will still be gatekeeping.

Feminists who have not yet learned to listen to established feminists when they speak out, don't inspire confidence in me.

I do generally support self ID but that doesnt mean I dont have concerns about it. I think there needs to be more discussion over what it entails and how to protect the rights of people born with vaginas. As it is true that people are oppressed directly because of their biology and not just because of their gender identity. I do think there needs to be recognition of that. But also I understand it must be hard to be essentially denied your right to exist in the way that you genuinely feel you exist and to be told by someone else who and what you are.
Unfortunately many women who were assigned female at birth are also being told who and what they are by society still in an oppressive manner and you cant just ignore that is happening by saying its all about choice.
I mean I could self ID as a man but im still going to be treated as a woman because I look like one.... im still going to have the assumed responsibilities and dangers that come with a female anatomy.
That needs to be taken into account otherwise you cannot protect peoples rights properly.

So I consider myself a feminist but the whole thing worries me because I dont want anyone to suffer. However the two extremes of view on this issue dont seem to offer any resolution at all. It seems like one set of people will not be okay without the other set suferring in some way.