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Feminism: Sex & gender discussions

Marks & Spencer protest

371 replies

invisibleoldwoman · 18/04/2018 14:39

Here is an email sent to M&S today.

"I needed new bras. Normally I go to one of your stores, get fitted, get advice and buy several. Have a look around generally and maybe coffee or lunch in the cafe. Now, I cannot deal with the stress of worrying about whether I will have to deal with a male fitter, or men in the changing rooms. So I have bought my bras somewhere I don't have to deal with this. I have decided not to use your online shop as I do not wish to support a company that makes it impossible for me to feel comfortable visiting a changing room or asking for a personal service."

I have decided to send this sort of feedback everytime I fail to buy something somewhere where they have gone along with the self-id policy.

OP posts:
thebewilderness · 20/04/2018 20:14

Dh favourite phase is 'you should...'

Usually i already have!

Oh Em Gee! The internet is full of men asking women why they are not doing what they are already doing. Exhausting.

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 20/04/2018 20:15

Im doing it!!! I had to stop doing it to tell you im doing it!!!


AngryAttackKittens · 20/04/2018 20:16

Not sure why this has turned into the let's recite stereotypes about men thread?

AngryAttackKittens · 20/04/2018 20:17

(Not aimed at you, btw, Rufus)

Kneedeepinunicorns · 20/04/2018 20:20

Mad you're spending a lot of time explaining your view of men and women to us. Where is this going please? The message I'm picking up at the moment seems to be that women really need to get it together and do what in your view men do. It's coming across as really quite sexist and with no clear point as to why you feel this should happen and to what aim. Can you clarify?

I don't see in the least why the trans employee of M&S should be 'terrified' of women explaining their feelings and preferences around their bodies, privacy and dignity? Women having feelings, preferences and choice isn't exactly terror inducing. If the employee is of the calibre of the transwomen MNetters they will be well aware that not all women will be comfortable stripping in front of them and good enough at their job to know when another member of staff may be a better match for a fitting. If they're a member of the very small militant group who would take a role like this in intentionally poor faith then they're very unlikely to be phased by women explaining their feelings: they tend to believe women shouldn't have or talk about them. It isn't the responsibility of women to protect TIMs by silencing themmselves regarding feelings and views that TIMs may find uncomfortable or inconvenient.

Ereshkigal · 20/04/2018 20:23

I categorically reject the idea that the attitude towards this issue currently prevailing in academia is in any way ethically "correct".


Ereshkigal · 20/04/2018 20:25

It isn't the responsibility of women to protect TIMs by silencing themmselves regarding feelings and views that TIMs may find uncomfortable or inconvenient.

It never fails to shock me how prevalent this view is.

TotallyLibrarianPoo · 20/04/2018 20:27

Ok yes that is more clear thank you, Mad. However, I'm not sure what point you are making with your posts.

Can you see by what you wrote yourself, that women are coming from a difficult position? In some of your posts you seem to be getting the problem, but then it feels a bit like you are then blaming women for being in this position. Apologies if I have that wrong.

And can we stop with the phobia stuff. In all my time reading the FC there have been very few transphobic posters and they are quickly reported by the other MNers. Wanting to find a different approach to making sure WAG as well as transpersons have separate rights that address their needs is not transphobic for Pete's sake.

Anyone who shrieks transphobia at MN has clearly not spent any time actually reading the boards. And nope being cranky about the erasure of WR isn't transphobic either, and I'm very suspicious of the motivation of people who say it is.

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 20/04/2018 20:29

No problem angry Smile

TotallyLibrarianPoo · 20/04/2018 20:31

Apologies cross post with Kneedeepinunicorns, I'm a bloody slow typerGrin

MadBadDaddy · 20/04/2018 20:45

Scout's honour I am not blaming women. I'm not even sure what my own point is now, something about men not acknowledging oppression because they are blind to it, or something.

AngryAttackKittens · 20/04/2018 20:49

Well, that I kind of agree on, but given that it's possible to un-blind oneself by listening to women, which shouldn't be hard given that we're half the population, it's not a very good excuse.

MadBadDaddy · 20/04/2018 21:15

I wasn't offering it as an excuse, just a theory as to why. Being trans, I'm probably not the best person to speak on behalf of all men, b/c my personal solution is to abandon them.

Now I'm just putting nutshells in nutshells in nutshells. My brain hurts.

Italiangreyhound · 20/04/2018 21:17


@Italiangreyhound "Women, evidentally, have thrived & survived despite not solving their problems, but by finding ways of enduring them, resisting, etc. they are sisters in that."

Well that is so interesting. I am not sure all women have failed to solve their problems.

But most significantly, I don't feel women in general have thrived or survived in general. I've done OK, I feel I am lucky to have had the loving family and marriage I have. For girls forced to hide in holes in the ground in Mexico to avoid rape, I'm not sure I'd think in terns of thriving.

"For me as a man, some of these posts are a little like hearing war reports from far away on a radio." For me, as a woman, it is exactly like that too. Except for me there is the awareness the war comes closer at times.

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 20/04/2018 21:17


It is very mind bendy...hope you are doing ok

You seemed a bit, well not upset but not happy on the other thread

TotallyLibrarianPoo · 20/04/2018 21:17

Fair enough Mad. In all sincerely and in the kindest way, I'd like to suggest you have a read through the FC boards, esp some of the posts starting back in Jan.

You sound like you are trying to see both sides. Please know that if you have daughters, taking the time to read the concerns here can only benefit them and your DW.

TotallyLibrarianPoo · 20/04/2018 21:19

or even sincerity not sincerelyBlush

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 20/04/2018 21:22

Thats what you get for using long words totally

You should use short ones like me Grin

Italiangreyhound · 20/04/2018 21:24

@SusanBunch "Privately though, I would be quite surprised if the recommendations of the project were not quite pro-trans. I could of course be proved totally and utterly wrong."

I'm the nicest possible way I hope you are. But care to explain why you think that? No need of you would rather not and thanks for the link. Will explore! (Ps are you named after Ross's ex wife's lesbian wife from Friends? Nosy-faced emotion!)

TotallyLibrarianPoo · 20/04/2018 21:27

Grin I know Rufus, I was showing off and it bit me in the bumBlush

LucaMommy · 20/04/2018 21:31

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

SusanBunch · 20/04/2018 21:40

I'm the nicest possible way I hope you are. But care to explain why you think that? No need of you would rather not and thanks for the link. Will explore! (Ps are you named after Ross's ex wife's lesbian wife from Friends? Nosy-faced emotion!)

Yes, I am Grin

Well, let's just say gender-critical views aren't too popular in academia. There are a few lone voices but not many and largely it goes un-discussed. I know I have been pilloried on here for some of my comments and told I lack empathy, but compared to some others in academia, I am positively terfy for wanting natal sex spaces in some settings (prisons, refuges, rape centres etc). I seriously doubt that these researchers would come back with findings that pleased the GC contingent. As I say, I could be wrong and obviously the project is only at the beginning. I know the article says they will be speaking to activists, but I am not sure if that includes GC activists or just ones from the trans side.

Also, the grant is very large. I think it's likely to be quite influential, despite the view that academics just sit in ivory towers and don't live in the real world.

SusanBunch · 20/04/2018 21:43

Oh and predictably and sadly, extracts from this thread are now on twitter as evidence of hysteria/transphobia....

AngryAttackKittens · 20/04/2018 21:46

Of course they are. That isn't evidence that the women here aren't being as naice as some would like us to be, it's evidence of the fact that some would prefer if we didn't speak at all.

MadBadDaddy · 20/04/2018 21:53

Thanks for the friendly noises.

"Well that is so interesting. I am not sure all women have failed to solve their problems." Sorry I meant the 'collective', historical problems of violence, supression, etc. by men. If these had have been resolved somehow, feminism wouldn't even be needed. Reading these boards (and knowing my wife), its clear that many women do solve these individually, are strong, organised, proud, outspoken, and all of that. But there is always supportive and protective consideration for those who aren't as forthright and who still suffer, and of a continuing struggle: No woman truly wins until every woman wins. I don't think us blokes find that easy to appreciate or bear in mind. We only do simple problems.

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