Article (advert) for working as & using prostitutes on BBC today, running a brothel, punters invisible as usual

[KittTheCar]

here

While it's always interesting to read perspectives I find this one a bit proaganda-y, specifically:

• Police officer turned brothel owner saying police will turn blind eye (he's someone "in the know" and as an ex copper will be seen to be a good moral type of person generally
• Woman saying why should anyone judge her - which always comes up, from a feminist point of view it is striking that yet again we have a defensive woman while the men who - if anyone is to be judged should be the ones to be judged - are pretty much out of the picture in this part
• It's clearly an advert for this particular brothel
• The idea that paying for sex is normalised is presented as a good thing, and that groups of men will come as a starter to a night out. Do they really do this? I mean, a lot, in the UK? I took it as more of a suggestion to readers - "it's all fine and normal, come along with your mates!"

Posting on the feminist board for obvious reasons - I find the normalisation of buying women for sex really worrying and extremely unpleasant. Women these days feel it's not something they have any right to dislike. The happy hooker narrative is in full swing.

Did this read to anyone else more or less like an advert for this particular brothel?

Yes this bit

"There are a lot of younger gentlemen coming in, handsome gentlemen - people that you wouldn't think would need to pay for sex, but it's easier for them than dating," she says.

"Sometimes friends will come together before a night out. It's become a lot more normalised."

I think this is supposed to say oh well these men are handsome and could get sex for free so it's not really unpleasant for the women working (questionable).

And the friends going along together thing is grim. Men bonding over sexually exploiting some women before a night out.

Yuck.

Alot of men say they worry about having sex without consent nowadays by accident cos it's so fucking hard to know, obviously so maybe this is their easy way out. Pay money upfront to buy the consent.

I see what you mean though I thought similar when I saw it. I didn't watch the video but the thumbnail shows a confident, clean looking woman with the "I enjoy being a sex worker" vibe floating around the article. As if they're all like that and it's all cool and fun and safe now

I think the whole sex 'work' is empowering and women enjoy it does not show it is remotely empowering. But rather shows the women (and men) drawn into it actually have a very fucked idea of self esteem and power.

I think this is supposed to say oh well these men are handsome and could get sex for free so it's not really unpleasant for the women working (questionable).

It also seems to me to be blaming women for the fact that they are choosing to pay for sex. It being so much "easier" than actually forming a relationship with one, if only us women weren't so difficult

The idea of buying consent is like the idea of buying love! Or respect.

@DillyDillyDally yes God forbid, women are so difficult now that even nice looking men can't get laid!! They really do think women are here for one purpose only, to please men.

DillyDallyDally yes -

It's the "be careful what you ask for" thing that women get walloped with my a certain type of man all the time.

The idea that if women are able to set their own boundaries / choose their partners / not need a man financially then OHO well they might choose not to be with you HA! But it's not much of a HA! really as clearly a man who doesn't see women as anything other than holes to fuck into and kind of a completely different species to men (rather than a girlfriend being a friend with the bonus that you fancy each other and have sex) then it's not exactly a huge loss.

This would be the "swerfy" side of MN coming out then, just thinking of all the people who will be looking at the boards now.

For anyone reading, many feminists judge the men who pay for sex, not the women (and men) who sell it.

The history of the world and the current situation everywhere around the world demonstrates that many (most?) men who pay for sex are the ones who do not give a fuck about the people they are paying. It is THEM that deserve maximum opprobrium.

It is also obvious that decriminalising / normalising increases demand and I can't imagine that anyone who isn't directly going to profit from it (financially or as a punter) sees that as a positive thing. Study in scotland some years ago showed that while there's a hardcore who will do it anyway, for most the idea that getting caught might mean work finding out / family finding out / some kind of criminal penatly would mean they would not.

Less men paying for sex means less women (and men and children) being prostituted, which in my book is a GOOD thing.

I completely agree with the last paragraph

If I'm on my own [and not in a brothel] - which is what the law allows me to do - I'm at the mercy of whichever client decides to come in," she says

A client can come in, rape me, beat me, mug me

[But] if I work in a brothel where there's other women present, where there's a receptionist, it's a million times safer

Except that working in a brothel / flat / sauna massage is not illegal in itself so the law allows that as well anyway. Running one of those places is however illegal and the law in the UK is a mess and needs an update

As for it being newsworthy that a brothel is operating in full view of the police, this is just normal operating.
There has always been a close relationship between the police and a sex trade establishment and the general consensus between the two is that so long as there is no public nuisance and so long as no crime is committed on premises such as drugs or underage sex then the police will turn a blind eye.

To say "I'm not being exploited" Haa yeah those days you're sat around not making your target because the house always makes sure there's a good variety of choice between girls but only has 2 rooms means girls are mostly sat around not working, not to mention that shifts are 12 hours and you're not permitted to leave the house in that whole time...

Study in scotland some years ago showed that while there's a hardcore who will do it anyway, for most the idea that getting caught might mean work finding out / family finding out / some kind of criminal penatly would mean they would not

That is interesting. There has been more traction in Scotland than in England for the idea that legalisation/decriminalisation is the way to go. And obviously N.Ireland has gone for making buying sex illegal.

Grim :-(

Really grim. There's another thread going on this article. The BBC doesn't even pretend to be balanced on this issue. But surely anyone with half a brain cell should be capable of asking in what possible worlds a "job" where you are regularly at risk of rape, assault and murder, a "job" which isn't actually needed by society (don't these inadequate excuses for men have right hands?) is an acceptable thing to force women into through poverty (and for every "happy hooker" the BBC chooses to interview, there are scores who are doing it out of desperation and lack of options).

And for the record I am a PPERF - p-mp and p-nter exclusionary feminist. Men who make profits out of the rape of women or who rape women because they think they can buy consent are the scum of the earth.

I'll have a look for other thread.

Police officer turned brothel owner saying police will turn blind eye (he's someone "in the know" and as an ex copper will be seen to be a good moral type of person generally

I know that this is business as usual, but in theory could he not be prosecuted for this, as well as his mates who're still on the force? Technically that's police corruption.

(You know, in an alternate universe in which society gives a shit about women and the police are actually held to account for questionable behavior.)

Well, yes.

I get that if it's a couple of people working together and it's above board there's no trouble, then it's not really in anyone's interest to prosecute.

As soon as you have someone "running" the women though, that's another matter. There is a crime about profiting from proceeds, opportunity for exploitation is high (he is employer, what rights do they have, in other case it is more like self employed). Etc etc.

I found it grim reading.

That the woman who was happy to be identified has been so socially brainwashed to thinking that having sex with around 9 (was it 9?) men a day is better than more socially acceptable work and somehow empowering to women is just horrible.

To clarify I don't want to be derogatory towards her and her feelings, it is the societal viewpoint and the manipulations of the men that pay for and run these services that have worked together to make women in her position feel that way that I hate.

I thought it very telling that it is run by a man.

So these women,who they all call girls, are all working for a man who pays them to have sex with other men. And this is ok and not pimping?

It said that she pays tax and her earnings are above board. But what rights does she have really. Does she have a contract? Set breaks in her shift to comply with legislation? Sick pay? Holidays and holiday pay? Would she have maternity leave if she had a child? If she stopped pulling in so many punters and got fired would she actually be able to get legal recourse for unfair dismissal?

I do get that for the women it must feel safer being there than other ways of selling themselves. But how safe are they really? If someone wants to beat them up does a receptionist really put them off?

And do they have rules about condoms and regular sti checks?

It all just read as a horrible, twisted man taking full advantage of being an ex cop and somehow above the law.

The first thing that jumped out at me was the owner saying "I provide a service".
Erm, who provides a service???
If the woman was running the place herself and nobody else taking a cut, that would certainly be less exploitative.
Weird propaganda piece by the BBC though.

Oh really? So he's giving blowjobs too then?

If not then no, he does not in fact provide the "service".

and as an ex copper will be seen to be a good moral type of person generally

Debatable.

Kind of the opposite ime.

It said that she pays tax and her earnings are above board. But what rights does she have really. Does she have a contract? Set breaks in her shift to comply with legislation? Sick pay? Holidays and holiday pay? Would she have maternity leave if she had a child? If she stopped pulling in so many punters and got fired would she actually be able to get legal recourse for unfair dismissal?

Also assuming that references from there for another type of job won't help her gain a different line of work.

It's all such bullshit. Obvious bullshit. But as this article proves no one seems to give a damn about women.

I was reading an article this morning in The Guardian (yes I know, I get what I deserve) about 'Have I got News for You' not being able to get female politicians to appear. The comments below the line were so misogynistic - and why not? As we can see from the BBC reporting of this brother and its 'good moral' ex copper (selling women), respect for women isn't high on anyone's agenda these days.

I notice that 'his teenage daughter doesn't know about his job'. Maybe not so cool, moral and trustworthy after all, then.

"His teenage daughter doesn't know about his job."
That's a line of questioning utterly missed. I wonder why his daughter doesnt know & why isn't he encouraging her into the business?

I just saw a headline in Spiegel (www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/razzia-bundespolizei-geht-gegen-menschenhandel-vor-a-1203447.html) that German police has carried out a raid involving 1500 police officers, 62 brothels and more than 100 arrests in 12 German states this morning. This mainly targeted people traffickers from Thailand it seems, but there will be victims from many countries forced to work in German brothels. It's appalling.
How German politicians couldn't grasp that liberalising prostitution laws in Germany would lead to this situation I have no idea.