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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What could I have done differently?

81 replies

Marcussmith23145 · 14/04/2018 16:55

Hi all! I’ve joined mumsnet specifically to tell a story of something that has recently been resolved and to look for advice as to what to do differently. CAUTION long post

Around a year ago, I was on a packed tube on the way to work when the Oyster card of the woman in front of me dropped to the floor. I picked it up, put my hand on her shoulder to attract her attention (she was wearing headphones) and returned the card. She didn’t say thank you, but hey, London. She got off at the same station as me. I stopped at the bottom of the escalator to help another woman with her pushchair as the she couldn’t find the lift. We made small talk and parted ways at the top of the escalator.

I headed for the ticket barriers but was collared by two members of station staff with a shouting woman. I was in uniform (I’m a nurse) and assumed that they needed help. How wrong I was. It transpired that, according to the woman, I had touched her inappropriately. I was confused. I told the station staff that I had put my hand on her shoulder to attract her attention. They said that the woman didn’t dispute this but it was obviously a sexual advance upon a woman of colour. I was still confused. I was asked for my details, which I provided, all whilst the woman was bellowing that I should be arrested. Colleagues were walking past and hearing this. I then continued to work, shaken to say the least.

Around a week later, two uniformed police appeared at my front door. I let them in and they wanted to discuss the incident. I explained the situation and was met with stern looks. The woman has claimed sexual assault and just because I thought that touching her shoulder was innocent, she didn’t think that it was and her opinion is what mattered.

Some brief background to me. I’m a 41 year old white guy. I’m just over 6 ft tall, have lost the battle with male pattern baldness. I’m also a little overweight (thank you relatives with chocolates!). My husband and I have been together since first year of university. He’s a doctor, British born Chinese. I was adopted at 3 months by two wonderful parents. They were from Trinidad, already had 5 of their own but took me in regardless. I play rugby, sew stupid cushions and love the Lake District.

To continue, the police left shortly after I had explained my background to them. They came back a month later, again explaining that the woman wanted my charged. They would be undertaking further investigation.

I work with the elderly. Part of this involves putting hands on shoulders if they are deaf to attract attention, or to help them from a chair. A kind hand on the shoulder can give confidence back when trying to walk again. I have never thought that I was being inappropriate.

The investigation took around 11 months, and at the end the police decided on no further action. During this time, I had to report this all to my employer. I had to be moved away from patients. I’ve sat in an office for all of this time, pretty much alone.

I’ve posted some of this on other forums and have been met with vitriol. Some have told me that they would break my arm if I touched them without permission. Others have told me that if I can’t see what I’ve done is wrong then I am the worst face of the patriarchy. Others still insist that by picking up the card I was infantilising the woman, again making me an awful person.

Since it has finished, I’ve (nearly) left nursing and the NHS. I’m just finishing my notice period. I don’t want to take the risk again. I am worried about providing personal care, holding someone’s hand whilst they get bad news, hugging a grieving relative. My behaviour around women has changed, too. I tend not to put money into the cashier’s hand when paying for things. I won’t sit anywhere near a lone woman on the night tube.

What I want to know is where do I go from here? Is offering a pregnant woman my seat on the tube demeaning her and making her seem weak? Do I help at a cardiac arrest in the street? I would, you see, be putting the heel of my hand between a woman’s breasts. Where is the boundary? As a man, I feel like I have been painted with a massive brush that says “all men are scum”.

What I want to know is what did I do as an individual that was so wrong? I think that I did what any normal person would have done. Am I wrong?

Opinions welcome!

OP posts:
BarrackerBarmer · 14/04/2018 19:13

Also that the police took a longer investigation on this shoulder touching incident than they do on many rape cases too.
I'm unsure about the cctv footage which I would hope would have cleared him very quickly.
Perhaps he could lodge a complaint with the police?

No posters have responded yet with "yes, this was sexual assault".
Most have said no it isn't. Some have said they don't like being touched without consent, but haven't claimed they would press charges for such an incident as he describes.
Marcus seems reluctant to engage with some of our questions or to acknowledge that his astonishing experience might need a little corroborating evidence to reassure posters of his genuineness.
I'm sure he doesn't expect women to automatically trust every new poster with an extraordinary claim when it's been explained how we are frequently trolled here.

Trousersdontmakemeaman · 14/04/2018 19:21

Blimey, in the attempt to show women as extreme crazies they have absolutely no limits.

Desperation.

thedancingbear · 14/04/2018 19:53

'have you heard about Barry from accounts? apparently he's been arrested for groping a woman on the tube. he's told HR he only touched her on the shoulder because he was trying to give her oyster card back'

Hands up who believes Barry. I certainly fucking don't.

thebewilderness · 14/04/2018 20:04

I used to give talks to medical professionals on how to avoid patients assaulting them.
What I would say to you is that there is a difference between tapping someone on the shoulder to get their attention and putting your hand on a person's shoulder to control them.
Tap is fine, putting on hand is not. Stop doing it.

Deltonia · 14/04/2018 20:27

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SonicVersusGynaephobia · 14/04/2018 20:32

It's especially unfortunate that you are doing such an important and thankless job as a nurse in the NHS, which is struggling for nurses as it is, and now you feel like you had to give that up.

It's also very unfortunate that women are now more at risk of dying of cardiac arrest or being hit by a bus.

Bloody woman, eh. Ruining it for all other women with her ridiculous feminism.

BarrackerBarmer · 14/04/2018 21:51

"or being hit by a bus"

Grin
Trousersdontmakemeaman · 14/04/2018 21:57

He will defo get signed up to write a crime drama though hey?

BarrackerBarmer · 14/04/2018 22:02

I wonder why mnhq haven't deleted this thread yet after OP requested they did?

Trousersdontmakemeaman · 14/04/2018 22:05

Needs the dialogue for the next piece he is writing. Or the other activity he does all over his keyboard.

thebewilderness · 14/04/2018 22:14

I had not seen this comment before I made mine or I would have said that Marcus already knows what he should have done differently. Tap on the shoulder, never place hand on shoulder as though they are under arrest.
If you drop something, I will not tap you on the shoulder to draw your attention to it. About to walk in front of a bus? Same thing. Also too and besides MNHQ are always very prompt about self reports. I cannot think what the delay could be on poor Marcus request.

powershowerforanhour · 14/04/2018 22:25

NHS training must be in a parlous state if a nurse is coming on here asking what the protocol is re: CPR on a woman. Either that or MN is very awesome and the fount of all knowledge.

Onemorning · 14/04/2018 22:46
Hmm
LassWiADelicateAir · 14/04/2018 23:29

I am worried about providing personal care, holding someone’s hand whilst they get bad news, hugging a grieving relative

I would not want a nurse of either sex doing that.

LassWiADelicateAir · 14/04/2018 23:33

Tap on the shoulder, never place hand on shoulder as though they are under arrest

Exactly - the same as one would do with any stranger if one needed to attract their attention in this situation. Not "feeling their collar" Old Bill style.

KittTheCar · 14/04/2018 23:34

Interesting.

I reported a man to the police for masturbating at me on the tube. They weren't interested.

Seems times have really changed.

Trousersdontmakemeaman · 14/04/2018 23:37

The seagull had enough chips a way back.

JustOneMan · 15/04/2018 08:12

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TERFragetteCity · 15/04/2018 08:16

I am interested in those other links, just to see the difference in perspective. If you could post them OP that would be fab.

TIA

0phelia · 15/04/2018 08:24

Of course it is not OK to sit near a lone woman on the tube...

Urgh once I was sat in an empty tube carriage and someone entered from all the way down the other end to sit directly opposite me. He asked me the time, I told him it, he said "pardon?" and then got up to sit directly next to me and stared at me "I said three fifteen" again, and just stared straight ahead while he tried to ask me all these other questions and got off at the next stop which was not my stop.

Don't do that OP!

birthofawoman · 15/04/2018 09:10

Marcus, I hope this thread gets deleted soon because I don't feel that you deserve to feel bad for what you did, at all - and I'm someone who's views are generally quite feminist in nature! I think we're living in a time/place where everything's super politicised and everyone's kind of hyper-valiant towards issues of race, gender, sexuality, religion and so forth. It's a good thing, for the most part, that we're discussing/challenging certain issues that have existed for a long time (in this case, everyday sexism/sexual assault), but it's also resulted in this 'can't win' dilemma whereby everybody is simultaneously offended at the same time, everyone wants their [separate and sometimes conflicting] needs met at the same time, and everyone wants equality and inclusion at all times. These things would be nice, in an ideal world, but they're simply not always practical. I think that with feminism being a popular topic in the media right now (along with sub-categories such as sexual abuse, sexual assault and so forth), it's led to women actively contemplating their experience as a woman (in a sexist world), perhaps in a way that over-estimates or misinterprets male behaviour. From how you describe the situation, it was clear to me that you had nothing but good intentions, but to other women, this may not have been obvious due to the above.

I'm so sorry you experienced something like this, and are now experiencing this unfortunate aftermath. A completely underserved and misunderstood situation, in my eyes.

Also, MN users are known to be quite brutal and unforgiving (trust me, I learned the hard way when I first joined and made an innocent thread that I also asked to have removed) - don't take it too personally/literally. Unfortunately, this isn't the place to come for open minds.

Again, though, I'm someone who sees zero fault in what you actually did and the obvious intentions behind your actions, it's just that you found yourself doing it in a time/place where male attitudes/behaviour is being heavily challenged - to the point where over-estimations and misjudgements are often made.

birthofawoman · 15/04/2018 09:16

At a time/in a place*

birthofawoman · 15/04/2018 09:41

Can I ask why it's 'not ok' to sit near (simply near, not directly next to) a lone woman on a train? What's not ok about that? I wouldn't have thought that not to be ok. Is it only not ok for men to do it, or also other women?

I can understand how these gendered social rules might not be obvious to men, who'd likely be in their own world, casually going about their day, not really thinking about it...

We're definitely living in a very "triggered" time, in a very "triggered" society it seems...

birthofawoman · 15/04/2018 09:41

Can I ask why it's 'not ok' to sit near (simply near, not directly next to) a lone woman on a train? What's not ok about that? I wouldn't have thought that not to be ok. Is it only not ok for men to do it, or also other women?

I can understand how these gendered social rules might not be obvious to men, who'd likely be in their own world, casually going about their day, not really thinking about it...

We're definitely living in a very "triggered" time, in a very "triggered" society it seems...

birthofawoman · 15/04/2018 09:44

... yes, I've definitely had uncomfortable and downright inappropriate experiences from men sat close to me, but I wouldn't decide that no man should be allowed to sit near me because of it. I wouldn't reduce all men to inappropriate/likely to be inappropriate.